Buehrlesque Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 10:43 PM) Kenny is definitely putting this squarely on Ozzie, and I love it. Kenny is the GM, Ozzie is the manager. Kenny should NOT be putting this on Ozzie, it's KENNY'S call! Unless... Kenny is just giving Ozzie enough rope to hang himself with- setting up and pre-justifying a potential firing at the end of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The thing is, Kenny needs to go as much as Ozzie does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 10:43 PM) Kenny is definitely putting this squarely on Ozzie, and I love it. I hate this cat-and-mouse game he is playing. Either way, it's still on Kenny no matter what he says. He is the GM, he controls the roster. If it is his decision to let the manager decide, then it's still on KW if the team doesn't perform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 07:00 AM) I hate this cat-and-mouse game he is playing. Either way, it's still on Kenny no matter what he says. He is the GM, he controls the roster. If it is his decision to let the manager decide, then it's still on KW if the team doesn't perform. He controls the roster, but does he control who plays? Otherwise, what's the point of the manager? Ozzie needs to go. That would solve all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Who gets blamed if a single school is failing, the principal or superintendent? Well....in this case, the entire organization is more or less in shambles, so you'd have to argue that Ozzie is the principal of the failing school but KW is CEO of the entire thing, and no less than equally responsible, if not moreso. It's easier to fire the principal of course, but JR might consider the only "fair" thing to do would be to let both go (so as to be perceived as not taking sides) and start over with a fresh approach/perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 07:14 AM) He controls the roster, but does he control who plays? Otherwise, what's the point of the manager? Ozzie needs to go. That would solve all. That is very true, and I am not trying to absolve Ozzie of all blame. While a Lilli/Teahen platoon in LF doesn't excite me, it still would be an upgrade over JP and Ozzie could make that move. That being said, the true answer is in AAA, and I still think it's up to KW to pull the trigger on that move, no matter what Ozzie thinks about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 11:01 PM) So what happens if Vic isn't that stud immediately at the major league level? Do you blame Walker? I'm a little cautious when it comes to believing a player in AAA is the answer to their problems. You know Viciedo had an .850 OPS in the majors last year right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 08:00 AM) I hate this cat-and-mouse game he is playing. Either way, it's still on Kenny no matter what he says. He is the GM, he controls the roster. If it is his decision to let the manager decide, then it's still on KW if the team doesn't perform. KW controls the roster but he can't force a guy into the lineup. If his manager is insisting that the player in AAA will not play everyday, and the GM doesn't have the authority to fire the manager, then the GM has little recourse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 08:08 AM) KW controls the roster but he can't force a guy into the lineup. If his manager is insisting that the player in AAA will not play everyday, and the GM doesn't have the authority to fire the manager, then the GM has little recourse. I understand that. If the manager's present day LF was no longer on the roster, however, would the player in AAA then be able to play everyday? I understand that Pierre will play everyday even with Viciedo on the roster, although I don't even know who you would send down if you did call Viciedo up. If Pierre was DFAed though, then I think the GM could force the manager's hand to start playing Viciedo everyday. If Ozzie then chose to stick with Lilli or Teahen, then I would start shifting the blame his way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 08:08 AM) KW controls the roster but he can't force a guy into the lineup. If his manager is insisting that the player in AAA will not play everyday, and the GM doesn't have the authority to fire the manager, then the GM has little recourse. Unless KW actually had the cojones to walk in to JR's office and say "unless we bring up Viciedo and play him everyday, this team probably won't be able to compete in the second half, barring miracle recoveries from Beckham, Rios and Dunn. I don't want to trash the entire future of this organization by trading away Dayan for Jeff Conine or Craig Counsell, so it seems you have to pick one of us or the other to lead this team. I made a mistake with Juan Pierre. It worked out last season but obviously he's just not going to be able to turn it around and we need Dayan's bat to spark the offense. I already mortgaged the future by giving up Hudson and Holmberg for Jackson...you have to understand that nothing can get Ozzie and I to work together. Our egos are too big to fit in the same room. Choose wisely." Edited June 21, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 09:25 AM) Unless KW actually had the cojones to walk in to JR's office and say "unless we bring up Viciedo and play him everyday, this team probably won't be able to compete in the second half, barring miracle recoveries from Beckham, Rios and Dunn. I don't want to trash the entire future of this organization by trading away Dayan for Jeff Conine or Craig Counsell, so it seems you have to pick one of us or the other to lead this team. I made a mistake with Juan Pierre. It worked out last season but obviously he's just not going to be able to turn it around and we need Dayan's bat to spark the offense. I already mortgaged the future by giving up Hudson and Holmberg for Jackson...you have to understand that nothing can get Ozzie and I to work together. Our egos are too big to fit in the same room. Choose wisely." In a much shorter sense...he'd have to be willing to resign. That's an intolerable place for a GM/Manager relationship to be. Too much power for the manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 08:19 AM) I understand that. If the manager's present day LF was no longer on the roster, however, would the player in AAA then be able to play everyday? I understand that Pierre will play everyday even with Viciedo on the roster, although I don't even know who you would send down if you did call Viciedo up. If Pierre was DFAed though, then I think the GM could force the manager's hand to start playing Viciedo everyday. If Ozzie then chose to stick with Lilli or Teahen, then I would start shifting the blame his way. I obviously have no proof of this, but I'm pretty sure Ozzie would sit Viciedo just to spite Williams if Pierre were DFA'd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 09:59 AM) I obviously have no proof of this, but I'm pretty sure Ozzie would sit Viciedo just to spite Williams if Pierre were DFA'd. I've got a feeling you're right. Although, that might put Teahen in LF more often...which would put Teahen at 3b less, which would be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 09:00 AM) I've got a feeling you're right. Although, that might put Teahen in LF more often...which would put Teahen at 3b less, which would be a good thing. Pierre being gone is a good thing in every way I can think of. Replacing him with Viciedo would be the ideal move, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 08:59 AM) I obviously have no proof of this, but I'm pretty sure Ozzie would sit Viciedo just to spite Williams if Pierre were DFA'd. Then you fire the manager and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 09:04 AM) Pierre being gone is a good thing in every way I can think of. Replacing him with Viciedo would be the ideal move, though. When we lose this division by about five games with Pierre sporting a -2 WAR, we will know exactly the one move that could have made up the difference. That is not to say Dunn/Rios aren't equally culpable in this White Sox s*** show, but we have those guys for 3+ years and need them to rebound of be completely f***ed for the next few years (as if we aren't already though). We don't have another player that can DH and Lillibridge as good as he's been is not suited to start six games a week at one position rather four or five games a week all over. So while I realize Dunn/Rios are the bigger underachievers, Pierre's s***tiness could have easily been resolved by one simple move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (southsideirish71 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 09:30 AM) Then you fire the manager and move on. For the billionth time, it's also fairly obvious that Williams DOES NOT have the power to fire Ozzie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 09:39 AM) For the billionth time, it's also fairly obvious that Williams DOES NOT have the power to fire Ozzie. Then he should resign, if only for his own dignity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 09:57 AM) Then he should resign, if only for his own dignity. His ego is probably too big to allow Ozzie to outlast him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 FWIW I remember reading a quote by Oz that went like this: "as long as he is here, I have to play him" CAT.AND.MOUSE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (justBLAZE @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 10:54 AM) FWIW I remember reading a quote by Oz that went like this: "as long as he is here, I have to play him" CAT.AND.MOUSE Referring to who? Pierre? Why doesn't that apply to Teahen and the Elf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 11:55 AM) Referring to who? Pierre? Why doesn't that apply to Teahen and the Elf? Because they're white. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 11:55 AM) Referring to who? Pierre? Why doesn't that apply to Teahen and the Elf? It does apply to Teahen. Teahen and his .197 batting average and .575 OPS have played at 3b the last 2 games. Only cost us 2 runs yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 21, 2011 -> 12:00 PM) It does apply to Teahen. Teahen and his .197 batting average and .575 OPS have played at 3b the last 2 games. Only cost us 2 runs yesterday. 66 ABs vs 285. Or 76 plate appearances vs 322 Edited June 21, 2011 by BigSqwert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justBLAZE Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Yea he quote was reffering to Pierre. Ozzie saying 'as long as he is here' puts it on Kenny to DFA him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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