WTF are we waiting for ? Call up Viciedo !

[maggsmaggs]

So in theory I want our highest OBP guy not named Konerko or TCQ batting leadoff, with our best fastball hitter (Bridge?) batting 2nd.

That theory only really works if the high OBP guy leading off is fast.

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

Who do you blame more for this? Ozzie or KW? For me, as stupid as Ozzie is for still believing in Juan Pierre, who has clearly lost all ability to play baseball, this is on Kenny Williams. KW has to know that JP is worthless, he is not a dumb guy. However, I don't think he has the balls to do the right thing for fear of the consequences in terms of the relationship with Ozzie.

 

One word:

 

Pathetic.

 

I pretty much agree with you. It's like you're a parent with two kids. One is a perennial f***-up and the other is usually good. If you catch them doing something wrong, it's one of those "I expect this from Ozzie, but I expect much better from you, KW" situations.

[Balta1701]

That theory only really works if the high OBP guy leading off is fast.

Not really, it puts guys on base in front of the power guys no matter what.

[Real]

as much as we like to make jabs at Rongey here, he also has came out and said that there are no plans to bring up Viciedo, this was as of yesterday, so docsox's statement seems to follow the current mindset about Pierre/Viciedo

 

this organization has no f***ing clue, but we all know that already

[Princess Dye]

so if you defect from Cuba, you spend a fair amount of time being a citizen of Nowhere

 

spooky sounding

[Cali]

It just pisses me off. Viciedo is an IMPACT bat. I honestly believe he could finally be the answer to "Where's our ________?"

 

But no, we have to give as many PA's to this little league slapper as humanly possible...

[Balta1701]

It just pisses me off. Viciedo is an IMPACT bat. I honestly believe he could finally be the answer to "Where's our ________?"

Phil Humber says hi.

[Cali]

Phil Humber says hi.

 

I meant more on the hitting side of "Where's our _______?"

[macsandz]

I meant more on the hitting side of "Where's our _______?"

 

 

GREAT ARTICLE: (Call up Tank / DFA Pierre / eat $3M / win Division)

 

By JJ Stankevitz

 

Dayan Viciedo appears to be moving closer to forcing Juan Pierre out of the White Sox's plans. But what would the repercussions be if the Cuban Tank was called up from Charlotte to play for the White Sox?

 

Jun 14, 2011 - Kenny Williams is ready to unleash the Tank upon the American League. But Juan Pierre is standing in the way.

 

Dayan Viciedo has belted 10 home runs with an .886 OPS and improved plate discipline numbers with Triple-A Charlotte this season, doing everything in his power to force the hand of the White Sox to call him up. The home runs are nice, and so is the OPS, but it's Viciedo's increased walk rate and decreased strikeout rate that are the most encouraging developments for the 22-year-old Cuban. Well, that and his major league-ready defense.

 

Yes, a walk rate of 6 percent isn't too impressive. But for a player whose walk rates in Double-A, Triple-A and the majors in the last two seasons have been 4.3 percent, 3 percent and 1.9 percent, 6 percent is a step in the right direction. Plus, Viciedo's strikeout rate sits at 16.2 percent, down from over 20 percent between Charlotte and Chicago in 2010.

 

Viciedo's powerful bat would fit nicely in a White Sox lineup that has considerably less depth than expected. The 2-3-4 combination of Alexei Ramirez, Carlos Quentin and Paul Konerko has been fantastic, but with A.J. Pierzynski/Alex Rios/Adam Dunn hitting fifth, the Sox have struggled to score beyond the cleanup spot.

 

Dunn and Rios have shown signs of life in the last few games, but Rios is statistically the worst hitter on the team and Dunn is the offensive equal of Pierzynski. Getting power into the No. 5 or No. 6 spot in the order could do wonders for the Sox.

 

But there are a few problems with calling up Viciedo to play right field (Quentin would shift to left) and hit in the middle of the lineup. The first, and most glaring, would be the hole left at the top of the order.

 

Or maybe there's been a hole in the top of the order to begin with.

 

Pierre had a fine month of May, posting a .365 OBP. He stole four bases in five attempts, showing he understood his aggressive tactics on the basepaths wouldn't fly after being caught seven times in 12 attempts during April.

 

June hasn't been as kind to Pierre, who has a .311 OBP for the month with one steal in two attempts. It's a small sample size, sure, and his walk-to-strikeout ratio of 3/1 is more in line with May (12/6) than April (6/13). But with Viciedo hitting so well in Charlotte, the onus is on Pierre to play well enough to fend him off.

 

But if Pierre is taken out of the starting lineup, somebody still has to lead off. The best option would be Ramirez, who has a .357 OBP with some halfway decent plate discipline numbers.

 

Ramirez, however, has been the ideal No. 2 hitter for the White Sox. He can't bunt, so Ozzie Guillen rarely feels the urge to waste an out with one of his better hitters at the plate. And he's hit pretty well, too, with a wOBA of .349 that puts him squarely in "above average" territory.

 

Moving him away from No. 2, though could actually have a positive effect on his offense. As the guy who hits ahead of Quentin and Konerko, Ramirez has seen the highest percentage of fastballs (55.8 percent) of his career. And he hasn't hit them well, according to FanGraphs' pitch type values.

 

In theory, Ramirez would see fewer fastballs and more breaking balls—against which he's been great—as a leadoff hitter. But Ramirez has started a game as a leadoff hitter just three times in his career. While he's been much more patient at the plate this season, there's no telling how he'd respond to having to be patient as the No. 1 hitter in the Sox lineup.

 

The best thing the Sox could do is move Ramirez to leadoff and tell him to absolutely nothing different. Better to have Ramirez hacking at the first pitch than forcing him to be patient. Ramirez forced patience in 2009—his walk and strikeout rates of that year are nearly identical to 2011—and had the worst offensive season of his career. In 2011, he's been able to strike a balance between patience and aggression, and the Sox shouldn't do anything to mess with that equilibrium.

 

Moving Ramirez to No. 1 would mean a hole would open up at No. 2. Gordon Beckham would be the most likely candidate to move there, as he's hit a Ramirez-like .282/.365/.418 since the start of May. Unfortunately, moving Beckham to No. 2 would probably result in a lot of bunting. Maybe if Beckham does as horrid a job of giving up outs as Ramirez did, the Sox will eventually stop asking him to sacrifice. That'd be nice.

 

So, if Pierre is replaced in favor of Viciedo, the lineup would ideally go as follows:

 

1. Ramirez

2. Beckham

3. Quentin

4. Konerko

5. Dunn (hopefully)

6. Viciedo

7. Pierzynski

8. Rios

9. Morel

 

I'd have to guess Rios would hit sixth and Viciedo eighth until Viciedo proves to Guillen he's better than Rios. And I also expect Pierzynski to be entrenched in the No. 5 spot until Dunn really starts hitting, which is a shame because as mentioned above, they're offensive equals. But Dunn has the much higher offensive ceiling.

 

The last issue the Sox would have to address would be Pierre's place with the club. Brent Lillibridge isn't going anywhere, the same goes for Omar Vizquel. Ramon Castro is safe as the backup catcher. The Sox won't dip below 12 pitchers, so dumping a reliever is out of the question.

 

To make room for Viciedo, that leaves Pierre and Mark Teahen as the potential odd man out. The Sox will have to eat salary either way—for Pierre, it'd be a pro-rated $3 million, for Teahen it'd be a pro-rated $4.75 million and then $5.5 million for 2012. Neither player is an enticing trade target, so designation for assignment is the route the Sox would probably take.

 

DFA'ing either player would probably result in a clearing of waivers and then a refusal of a minor league assignment, meaning the Sox would be on the hook for the remainder of either contract.

 

The Sox don't exactly have $7 million or so laying around, so Teahen isn't a viable option for dumping. Pierre would cost about $2 million for the Sox to get rid of, so he would have to be the odd man out in this scenario.

 

It'd be a tough pill to swallow for the Kenny Williams, Guillen and the entire White Sox organization which holds a high amount of respect for Pierre. But if it makes the team better—it would—and increases the Sox's chances of making a playoff run, there's no reason why the move shouldn't be made.

 

[greg775]

I know you guys don't want to hear this but Juan isn't going anywhere and Dayan will not be replacing him anytime soon.

 

It's amazing how every year there's that one guy the fans want to DFA more than win games it seems.

Pods one year.

This year it is Juan Juan Juan.

 

If juan wasn't here, who'd be the whipping boy? Beckham? Cause Rios and Dunn still have a lot of internet supporters.

[Kyyle23]

It's amazing how every year there's that one guy the fans want to DFA more than win games it seems.

Pods one year.

This year it is Juan Juan Juan.

 

If juan wasn't here, who'd be the whipping boy? Beckham? Cause Rios and Dunn still have a lot of internet supporters.

 

Whatever year it is, we all know that you will be sniffing out the whipping boy of the year and letting us know about it

[greg775]

Whatever year it is, we all know that you will be sniffing out the whipping boy of the year and letting us know about it

 

Yeah, why wouldn't I?

It's no fun seeing one player getting piled on unfairly.

[Heads22]

It's not unfair when he's offering none of what he's being paid to do.

[elrockinMT]

It's amazing how every year there's that one guy the fans want to DFA more than win games it seems.

Pods one year.

This year it is Juan Juan Juan.

 

If juan wasn't here, who'd be the whipping boy? Beckham? Cause Rios and Dunn still have a lot of internet supporters.

 

 

It is very apparent too many live in the moment and are not prepared for the long haul. Pierre for instance may be hitting .300 at the end of the year and helped us win, but they figure he has problems right now so he must go

[kjshoe04]

I would put serious money on the whipping boy of 2013 or 2014 being Rios. Probably with good reason.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Every day that Pierre sucks and the Sox lose this thread should grow longer and longer. Bring up Viciedo ! Play Lillibridge ! Do w/e with Juan Pierre !

[Jordan4life_2007]

Every day that Pierre sucks and the Sox lose this thread should grow longer and longer. Bring up Viciedo ! Play Lillibridge ! Do w/e with Juan Pierre !

 

But Juan did end the game with one of his patented sissy singles. So there's a positive for ya.

 

/ranger

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

This thread won't need to be bumped ever . After every Sox loss where Pierre sucks or Sox don't hit well I will keep it going. I'm on a mission from God !

[greg775]

I would put serious money on the whipping boy of 2013 or 2014 being Rios. Probably with good reason.

 

I don't know about that. I think a lot of this is human nature.

Rios is still considered "full of talent" by many and I think that makes him immune to criticism in some's minds.

It's a weird phenomenon. I know SOME people on here rip Rios and Dunn, but really not many. For some reason a lot of people think Rios and Dunn are decent members of the team when in reality they in their own way are as bad as Pierre.

Those are 3 very weak links in our order. Also, Mr. Ground ball/Can't throw anybody out AJ is a weakness along with Beckham.

How anybody can consider us a true contender is beyond me, unless 3-4 of those five get going.

Edited June 16, 2011 by greg775

[fathom]

I don't know about that. I think a lot of this is human nature.

Rios is still considered "full of talent" by many and I think that makes him immune to criticism in some's minds.

It's a weird phenomenon. I know SOME people on here rip Rios and Dunn, but really not many. For some reason a lot of people think Rios and Dunn are decent members of the team when in reality they in their own way are as bad as Pierre.

Those are 3 very weak links in our order. Also, Mr. Ground ball/Can't throw anybody out AJ is a weakness along with Beckham.

How anybody can consider us a true contender is beyond me, unless 3-4 of those five get going.

 

I worry about you

[greg775]

I worry about you

 

They boo Dunn at the Cell, but you really think Dunn is that unpopular on here?

I don't.

People still like him.

And when Rios gets criticized, somebody always comes back with how he should be hitting leadoff which is a non sequitir if I ever saw one considering his production.

Edited June 16, 2011 by greg775

[Jordan4life_2007]

They boo Dunn at the Cell, but you really think Dunn is that unpopular on here?

I don't.

People still like him.

And when Rios gets criticized, somebody always comes back with how he should be hitting leadoff which is a non sequitir if I ever saw one considering his production.

 

You get points for the bolded. The rest of this post is an F-.

[bigruss]

They boo Dunn at the Cell, but you really think Dunn is that unpopular on here?

I don't.

People still like him.

And when Rios gets criticized, somebody always comes back with how he should be hitting leadoff which is a non sequitir if I ever saw one considering his production.

Greg, you run away too much when people make legit arguments against your statements. Seriously, Steve called you out in the gamethread and I was not shocked at all to see that you never replied to it. Once someone makes a legit reason for why you're wrong you just run to another thread and post the exact same thing.

[fathom]

Greg, there's a huge difference between Rios/Dunn and Pierre. Rios/Dunn are locked up for numerous more years with the Sox, so they're obviously not going to be DFA'd, etc.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Greg, there's a huge difference between Rios/Dunn and Pierre. Rios/Dunn are locked up for numerous more years with the Sox, so they're obviously not going to be DFA'd, etc.

 

Not to mention both of those guys actually have legitimate skills when they're right. Therefore you can foresee some upside. Juan had one baseball skill prior to this year. Speed. And that's all but gone.