Petition to immediately replace OG/KW with Omar or D.Martinez/Hahn

[caulfield12]

Please sign...haha.

 

Seriously, this is too much. Now before someone suggests Joe McEwing, keep in mind that 1) he comes from the LaRussa school of managing (with its pros and cons) and can we honestly say that he's played an integral role in the development of any of our players? Maybe he has...I don't follow the minors as much as some here, would like to be enlightened.

 

Dave Martinez is a former Sox RFer, very popular around the game, well-spoken and good with the media and ladies (cue jokes about stealing Sandberg's wife), a disciple of one of the 3 best (and creative) managers in the game in Joe Maddon, and he comes from a system where players are drafted and developed....instead of constantly mixing in FA talent and 25% roster changeover every offseason via trade. He also fits with the Sox mode of being on the cutting edge in minority hiring and promotion, the Sox having already baptized Ozzie, KW and Kim Ng in key leadership positions.

 

Just say no to Joey Cora!!!

 

If Martinez won't take the position because it's the middle of the season, deferring to an off-season interview opportunity, then you go to Omar Vizquel as player manager, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Robin Ventura or Jack McDowell and offer them the job for the remainder of the season. You'd keep Cooper/Baines (not sure exactly why, just hate the idea of making him the scapegoat for some reason) in place and then let those guys name their own hitting coach.

 

I don't think Ventura would do it, out of respect to Ozzie, but McDowell might be crazy enough to try.

 

But seriously, in Hahn's shoes, he should go with Omar Vizquel for the rest of the year and roll the dice.

 

Cooper came to mind as well, but for the White Sox fanbase to really get back behind this team, it needs to be someone connected to Sox history or Chicago who's NOT Cora, Buddy Bell or Walker.

 

If those four guys wouldn't do it, I'd also consider offering the position to Steve Stone.

 

I'd much rather go down this "all in" season with Stone Pony, Dave Martinez or Omar Vizquel than Ozzie making the decisions. Ventura (as hitting coach), McDowell (bench coach) and Alomar, Jr. (bench coach), would be 4-6. Fisk, #7. Tony Pena (former catcher and Royals' manager, not reliever) #8.

 

I would throw Jake Peavy's name into the mix but he would probably get hurt again and nobody would listen to him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnCangelosi]

From what I've heard regarding Dave Martinez, it sounds like he would be a great fit- and I'm sure the first thing he'd do is DFA Pierre and bring up DV? Who wouldn't??? It's so blatantly obvious. And Kenny has to go as well since he damn well knows Pierre sucks but can't tell Ozzie what to do. I agree, if we are truly "all in" we have to take drastic measures now instead of letting this circus show continue of Ozzie putting us in the worst position to win each and every night by marching that clown out there in LF and being out managed 70-80% of the time.

 

There is no excuse with all of this talent to be in the position we're in today. And there needs to be some accountability on our hitting coach to help along guys with talent like Rios and Beckham who cannot dig themselves out of their rut. To score ONE FRIGGIN RUN against the Twins in 2 games? GMAB. I used to trust in KW and Ozzie for a long time after 2005 but it truly appears that was an aberration and they were lucky more than anything else to get what they got that year...I am happy with saying "thanks for 2005" and "don't let the door hit you on your way out". The opportunity this organization had after 2005 was immeasurable, and we squandered it bigtime and it's time to go in a new direction.

 

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Didn't read the post. Didn't care to. Firing Ozzie Guillen isn't going to win a division; nor is firing Kenny Williams.

 

Can we put an end to these threads for a while? I know people want Ozzie fired, but not right now; that's an end of the season thing; an end of the regime thing. Honestly, even if you put "Discuss" at the beginning of it, and then quote an article - you are the dumbass that decided to quote the article.

 

 

 

 

If the White Sox don't win the division this year, all of those in favor of a new manager will get one; all of those in favor of a new GM will get one. f***, just wait. f***ing NHL just ended. s***.

 

 

[BigSqwert]

I have no problem in getting rid of those 2 mid season. Do we really want to give Kenny another opportunity at a trade deadline given what's he done in recent years?

[caulfield12]

Well, you might as well get rid of all threads criticizing Beckham, Peavy, Dunn, Rios, AJ, Pierre, too.

 

Because nothing's going to change.

 

That's kind of whole point. In the last 2 1/2 seasons, we've been provided one stretch against mostly inferior NL competition...which is supposed to give us faith and confidence that anyone actually still has a clue what they're doing.

 

Thome for Kotsay last year, the stubborn insistence on giving Juan Pierre 700+ plate appearances, our complete inability to beat the Twins, even when they have one of the worst records and active rosters in the major leagues....

 

If Edwin Jackson gets taken down by Hudson tonight, we're going to have 10 separate threads about it.

 

At this point in 2011, what reason is there to believe that they will figure out a way to beat the Twins and Tigers with their current roster?

 

It's been debated for years how difficult it would be to change out most of the roster...so how could a fresh perspective possibly hurt?

 

If we keep going back to this "JR is loyal to a fault" argument, then you can forget about anyone ever being held accountable for anything in this organization.

 

How many players that weren't in Ozzie's doghouse for more complicated reasons have legitimately been held accountable for not doing their jobs?

 

How many "lessons learned" have actually taken, from all the Camp Coras and sacrifice bunting practice.....has anyone ever seen the coaching staff improve the abilities of a player who wasn't fundamentally sound when he arrived in Chicago?

 

Do we just push all of that off on a fired scouting director and ignore the ongoing failures at the major league level with Beckham and Rios? We can make excuses for Dunn and Peavy and Teahen and Pierre, but what excuses or explains why two potential star players are fizzling out?

 

Just watch. KW will resign because Ozzie's not going to quit and they're not going to fire him. Guillen clearly has more power than KW...if you were Rick Hahn and had been observing Guillen post 2006, would you really want to put up with him? Do you honestly think that Hahn would be given the ability to fire Guillen whenever he wanted as one of the conditions of assuming the position? Ozzie Guillen is basically Billy Beane, except he's the manager and not GM and all the brashness and bragadoccio isn't accompanied by the baseball intelligence to not stubbornly hold onto Juan Pierre in LF or Mark Kostsay as DH.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2011 by caulfield12

[MiddleCoastBias]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

#Marlins Loria in Europe, pondering changes. Roster move today. E-Rod not on firm ground. Still interest in Ozzie, even Bobby V. #MLB

 

followed by

 

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

#Marlins want Ozzie, but it's almost impossible to imagine it happening in season. #WhiteSox wanted @LoMoMarlins for him last winter. #MLB

just now

 

 

Edited June 17, 2011 by The Baconator

[chw42]

Please, let Florida have him.

[BigSqwert]

^ Please take him for some minor league arms!!!

[ptatc]

Please sign...haha.

 

Seriously, this is too much. Now before someone suggests Joe McEwing, keep in mind that 1) he comes from the LaRussa school of managing (with its pros and cons) and can we honestly say that he's played an integral role in the development of any of our players? Maybe he has...I don't follow the minors as much as some here, would like to be enlightened.

 

Dave Martinez is a former Sox RFer, very popular around the game, well-spoken and good with the media and ladies (cue jokes about stealing Sandberg's wife), a disciple of one of the 3 best (and creative) managers in the game in Joe Maddon, and he comes from a system where players are drafted and developed....instead of constantly mixing in FA talent and 25% roster changeover every offseason via trade. He also fits with the Sox mode of being on the cutting edge in minority hiring and promotion, the Sox having already baptized Ozzie, KW and Kim Ng in key leadership positions.

 

Just say no to Joey Cora!!!

 

If Martinez won't take the position because it's the middle of the season, deferring to an off-season interview opportunity, then you go to Omar Vizquel as player manager, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Robin Ventura or Jack McDowell and offer them the job for the remainder of the season. You'd keep Cooper/Baines (not sure exactly why, just hate the idea of making him the scapegoat for some reason) in place and then let those guys name their own hitting coach.

 

I don't think Ventura would do it, out of respect to Ozzie, but McDowell might be crazy enough to try.

 

But seriously, in Hahn's shoes, he should go with Omar Vizquel for the rest of the year and roll the dice.

 

Cooper came to mind as well, but for the White Sox fanbase to really get back behind this team, it needs to be someone connected to Sox history or Chicago who's NOT Cora, Buddy Bell or Walker.

 

If those four guys wouldn't do it, I'd also consider offering the position to Steve Stone.

 

I'd much rather go down this "all in" season with Stone Pony, Dave Martinez or Omar Vizquel than Ozzie making the decisions. Ventura (as hitting coach), McDowell (bench coach) and Alomar, Jr. (bench coach), would be 4-6. Fisk, #7. Tony Pena (former catcher and Royals' manager, not reliever) #8.

 

I would throw Jake Peavy's name into the mix but he would probably get hurt again and nobody would listen to him.

You have some good ideas in there and some not worth mentioning. McDowell and Fisk are too big of a**holes and no one would listen to them. Ventura is such a quiet guy I'm not sure how effective he would be. He is more the GM type in my opinion.

 

Hahn has learned under Williams so if Cora is out due to the Ozzie influence, Hahn should be out as well.

 

If there are changes, I do like the Martinez, Alomar Jr. They imoressed me as good "coach types" in my dealings with them.

[Milkman delivers]

Didn't read the post. Didn't care to. Firing Ozzie Guillen isn't going to win a division; nor is firing Kenny Williams.

 

Can we put an end to these threads for a while? I know people want Ozzie fired, but not right now; that's an end of the season thing; an end of the regime thing. Honestly, even if you put "Discuss" at the beginning of it, and then quote an article - you are the dumbass that decided to quote the article.

 

 

 

 

If the White Sox don't win the division this year, all of those in favor of a new manager will get one; all of those in favor of a new GM will get one. f***, just wait. f***ing NHL just ended. s***.

 

Besides what Sqwert said, I also don't have full faith that they'll fire Ozzie at the end of the year.

[chw42]

You have some good ideas in there and some not worth mentioning. McDowell and Fisk are too big of a**holes and no one would listen to them. Ventura is such a quiet guy I'm not sure how effective he would be. He is more the GM type in my opinion.

 

Hahn has learned under Williams so if Cora is out due to the Ozzie influence, Hahn should be out as well.

 

If there are changes, I do like the Martinez, Alomar Jr. They imoressed me as good "coach types" in my dealings with them.

 

I have no idea what really goes on in the front office, but Hahn and Kenny are not of the same baseball philosophy.

[fathom]

Besides what Sqwert said, I also don't have full faith that they'll fire Ozzie at the end of the year.

 

Just like how if the Sox lose, I hope Pierre goes 0-5, I'm of the opinion that if the Sox aren't going to make the playoffs, I'd rather they win 65 games and get a top 3 pick and get Ozzie out of here.

[Milkman delivers]

Just like how if the Sox lose, I hope Pierre goes 0-5, I'm of the opinion that if the Sox aren't going to make the playoffs, I'd rather they win 65 games and get a top 3 pick and get Ozzie out of here.

 

Same here, which is why I know they'll finish around .500. We'll hear things in the offseason like this:

 

"Even with the slow start, they still managed to finish the season with a respectable record. A lot of that has to do with the team having to gel after bringing in a few new faces. I think Ozzie deserves a chance to see what this team can do when it's completely gelled for 162 games."

Edited June 17, 2011 by Milkman delivers

[ptatc]

I have no idea what really goes on in the front office, but Hahn and Kenny are not of the same baseball philosophy.

 

Until Hahn gets a chance to run his own team, I wouldn't be to sure of that.

[fathom]

Same here, which is why I know they'll finish around .500. We'll hear things in the offseason like this:

 

"Even with the slow start, they still managed to finish the season with a respectable record. A lot of that has to do with the team having to gel after bringing in a few new faces. I think Ozzie deserves a chance to see what this team can do when it's completely gelled for 162 games."

 

This is such an amazing post

[BigSqwert]

This is such an amazing post

And likely a true statement.

[caulfield12]

Here's another major point.

 

Besides Jake Peavy, what injury problems have we had this year? Can we really legitimately use that as an excuse, like in 2004?

 

Are we going to be saying "well, if Adam Dunn doesn't have his appendix removed in the first month, he would have gone on to put up an MVP season?"

 

I'm not going to list all the Twins players they've been without, but note both the Tigers and especially the Indians have had FAR MORE injuries to deal with than the White Sox in 2011.

 

That's yet another source of frustration.

 

C'mon, if we get to 1,000 replies, Phil Rogers promised to mention SoxTalk in his Sunday "Whisperings" column.

Edited June 17, 2011 by caulfield12

[Soxfest]

Cora he can go with Guillen he brings nothing new to the table.

[Buehrlesque]

Same here, which is why I know they'll finish around .500. We'll hear things in the offseason like this:

 

"Even with the slow start, they still managed to finish the season with a respectable record. A lot of that has to do with the team having to gel after bringing in a few new faces. I think Ozzie deserves a chance to see what this team can do when it's completely gelled for 162 games."

My biggest fear Not unlike 2009 and 2010. I wouldn't mind seeing Ozzie sacked right now, but I am completely fine with the playoff mandate: If the Sox win the division, he stays. But if they lose, he goes, period. None of the justifications and rationalizations that enable him to keep his job, like MD mentioned.

 

I'd definitely be on board with Dave Martinez and Rich Hahn. (And if the Ozzie for Logan Morrison is still on the table, that would be cool too!)

[southsider2k5]

My biggest fear Not unlike 2009 and 2010. I wouldn't mind seeing Ozzie sacked right now, but I am completely fine with the playoff mandate: If the Sox win the division, he stays. But if they lose, he goes, period. None of the justifications and rationalizations that enable him to keep his job, like MD mentioned.

 

I'd definitely be on board with Dave Martinez and Rich Hahn. (And if the Ozzie for Logan Morrison is still on the table, that would be cool too!)

 

That was never "on the table". The Marlins asked about Guillen, and we told them that was what we wanted.

[Buehrlesque]

That was never "on the table". The Marlins asked about Guillen, and we told them that was what we wanted.

Who's to say the Marlins wouldn't take that offer today? Morrison is in hot water with ownership, the team is in utter collapse, their manager is likely to be fired, and the organization loves and clearly wants Guillen. Not saying it's a sure thing, but it's not impossible.

[Milkman delivers]

My biggest fear Not unlike 2009 and 2010. I wouldn't mind seeing Ozzie sacked right now, but I am completely fine with the playoff mandate: If the Sox win the division, he stays. But if they lose, he goes, period. None of the justifications and rationalizations that enable him to keep his job, like MD mentioned.

 

I'd definitely be on board with Dave Martinez and Rich Hahn. (And if the Ozzie for Logan Morrison is still on the table, that would be cool too!)

 

A couple of things. A simple playoff berth isn't enough to ensure his job (although it likely would). Limping into the playoffs by winning the division with 85 wins and getting trounced in the ALDS wouldn't be enough in my book.

 

The thing is that this team is too talented to finish any worse than ~.500. I've said that many times. A finish like that just shouldn't keep the status quo.

[fathom]

Who's to say the Marlins wouldn't take that offer today? Morrison is in hot water with ownership, the team is in utter collapse, their manager is likely to be fired, and the organization loves and clearly wants Guillen. Not saying it's a sure thing, but it's not impossible.

 

Why's LoMo in hot water? He'd be an amazing addition to the team, but I just can't picture Florida doing it. If anything, they're going to start trading off veterans and build around Stanton and Morrison.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Who's to say the Marlins wouldn't take that offer today? Morrison is in hot water with ownership, the team is in utter collapse, their manager is likely to be fired, and the organization loves and clearly wants Guillen. Not saying it's a sure thing, but it's not impossible.

 

Morrison is hot in the water? Have I missed something? And the Marlins are not in utter collapse. They've been without arguably the best pitcher in baseball for a while now and he won't be back until mid-July at the earliest. Hanley just got back from the DL. That team is pretty good when all their components are in place. Manager likely to be fired? Has he been there a full year yet?

[fathom]

Morrison is hot in the water? Have I missed something? And the Marlins are not in utter collapse. They've been without arguably the best pitcher in baseball for a while now and he won't be back until mid-July at the earliest. Hanley just got back from the DL. That team is pretty good when all their components are in place. Manager likely to be fired? Has he been there a full year yet?

 

He's almost definitely not going to be back next year. I honestly think Ozzie will be their 2012 manager, and he'll do very well there.