no faith and no patience in this organization

[Greg Hibbard]

I wonder how many fans on this board were alive during the 70s and 80s when the White Sox won 1 division title in 20 years and usually finished in 3rd or 4th place with 70 something wins. Of the ones that were alive, I wonder if they can really get back in touch with what it felt like to be a fan of this team during that era, and put it in context.

 

Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins.

 

Yes, our payroll has increased. Yes, the expectations have been higher recently. Yes, there have been some depressing results at times, particularly in our own division. Is it because we are agonizingly close? I hope that's the conclusion. Because if it's not, I have news for you: this is not a s*** organization. This organization is one of the best in the American League, year in and year out. You'd never know it from reading this board, though.

 

It is astounding to me that there is absolutely no faith and no patience in this organization, this coach and this general manager. We've won 88+ games in 4 of the past six seasons. How many other teams have won 88+ games in four of the past six seasons? Four: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies. That's it. Not your precious Twins, not the big-spending, bumbling big-market Mets, not the Dodgers of lore, not the Cubs. 25 of 30 teams haven't done it. The White Sox have.

 

And yet, everyone is seemingly as frustrated as if they have waited 20 years for a divisional title. This team has won a World Series recently, under this management's watch, and yet you would never know it from the faithlessness around here. Really, what gives? Sure, you can blather on about Guillen's lack of in-game managerial skills while conveniently overlooking his other intangibles (his ability to deflect media heat from his players, his ability to keep his team motivated (even allegedly cantankerous ones like AJP and Jurassic Carl), his ability to be hands-off when nobody would dare notice it. You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here.

 

You need to look no further than 12 miles north if you want to know how difficult it is to win in this game consistently, even with a large payroll. Whether or not you believe in curses, that team has fielded young talent, experienced managers, veteran leaders. They can't win s*** to save their damned lives. I can cite 5 more examples of teams who spent it all seemingly correctly and can't win s*** anyway (The Mets come to mind, among others).

 

The 2011 White Sox may have been disappointing thus far, but I can't really see them playing much worse, and I can't pin this on the organization, nor have I lost faith or patience. I will not blame OG/KW for Adam Dunn and Alex Rios having the WORST slumps of their respective careers, for Peavy's unforeseen injury problems, for Beckham turning from can't miss to Crede-lite, for Juan Pierre forgetting how to field. I will not blame this organization for a host of veteran relievers blowing the f*** up. I will not blame this organization for John Danks' uncharacteristic, bewildering numbers.

 

Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization.

 

I really wish other people believed that too.

[TheChrisSamsa]

I wonder how many fans on this board were alive during the 70s and 80s when the White Sox won 1 division title in 20 years and usually finished in 3rd or 4th place with 70 something wins. Of the ones that were alive, I wonder if they can really get back in touch with what it felt like to be a fan of this team during that era, and put it in context.

 

Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins.

 

Yes, our payroll has increased. Yes, the expectations have been higher recently. Yes, there have been some depressing results at times, particularly in our own division. Is it because we are agonizingly close? I hope that's the conclusion. Because if it's not, I have news for you: this is not a s*** organization. This organization is one of the best in the American League, year in and year out. You'd never know it from reading this board, though.

 

It is astounding to me that there is absolutely no faith and no patience in this organization, this coach and this general manager. We've won 88+ games in 4 of the past six seasons. How many other teams have won 88+ games in four of the past six seasons? Four: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies. That's it. Not your precious Twins, not the big-spending, bumbling big-market Mets, not the Dodgers of lore, not the Cubs. 25 of 30 teams haven't done it. The White Sox have.

 

And yet, everyone is seemingly as frustrated as if they have waited 20 years for a divisional title. This team has won a World Series recently, under this management's watch, and yet you would never know it from the faithlessness around here. Really, what gives? Sure, you can blather on about Guillen's lack of in-game managerial skills while conveniently overlooking his other intangibles (his ability to deflect media heat from his players, his ability to keep his team motivated (even allegedly cantankerous ones like AJP and Jurassic Carl), his ability to be hands-off when nobody would dare notice it. You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here.

 

You need to look no further than 12 miles north if you want to know how difficult it is to win in this game consistently, even with a large payroll. Whether or not you believe in curses, that team has fielded young talent, experienced managers, veteran leaders. They can't win s*** to save their damned lives. I can cite 5 more examples of teams who spent it all seemingly correctly and can't win s*** anyway (The Mets come to mind, among others).

 

The 2011 White Sox may have been disappointing thus far, but I can't really see them playing much worse, and I can't pin this on the organization, nor have I lost faith or patience. I will not blame OG/KW for Adam Dunn and Alex Rios having the WORST slumps of their respective careers, for Peavy's unforeseen injury problems, for Beckham turning from can't miss to Crede-lite, for Juan Pierre forgetting how to field. I will not blame this organization for a host of veteran relievers blowing the f*** up. I will not blame this organization for John Danks' uncharacteristic, bewildering numbers.

 

Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization.

 

I really wish other people believed that too.

 

Loving the White Sox is like loving the girl you hooked up with once, in 2005, but ended up in the "friend zone." We've had the sustained, albeit moderate, success, but we've only had the glory once, and we want it over and over again.

 

I'm with you. I can agree with pretty much every sentiment in this post. All or nothing has never been my thing. Give me a good team with a good chance to make the playoffs and I'm good with that. This team has been that since about 1991 (the beginning of my baseball life) with very few outliers.

 

[ptatc]

I wonder how many fans on this board were alive during the 70s and 80s when the White Sox won 1 division title in 20 years and usually finished in 3rd or 4th place with 70 something wins. Of the ones that were alive, I wonder if they can really get back in touch with what it felt like to be a fan of this team during that era, and put it in context.

 

Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins.

 

Yes, our payroll has increased. Yes, the expectations have been higher recently. Yes, there have been some depressing results at times, particularly in our own division. Is it because we are agonizingly close? I hope that's the conclusion. Because if it's not, I have news for you: this is not a s*** organization. This organization is one of the best in the American League, year in and year out. You'd never know it from reading this board, though.

 

It is astounding to me that there is absolutely no faith and no patience in this organization, this coach and this general manager. We've won 88+ games in 4 of the past six seasons. How many other teams have won 88+ games in four of the past six seasons? Four: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies. That's it. Not your precious Twins, not the big-spending, bumbling big-market Mets, not the Dodgers of lore, not the Cubs. 25 of 30 teams haven't done it. The White Sox have.

 

And yet, everyone is seemingly as frustrated as if they have waited 20 years for a divisional title. This team has won a World Series recently, under this management's watch, and yet you would never know it from the faithlessness around here. Really, what gives? Sure, you can blather on about Guillen's lack of in-game managerial skills while conveniently overlooking his other intangibles (his ability to deflect media heat from his players, his ability to keep his team motivated (even allegedly cantankerous ones like AJP and Jurassic Carl), his ability to be hands-off when nobody would dare notice it. You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here.

 

You need to look no further than 12 miles north if you want to know how difficult it is to win in this game consistently, even with a large payroll. Whether or not you believe in curses, that team has fielded young talent, experienced managers, veteran leaders. They can't win s*** to save their damned lives. I can cite 5 more examples of teams who spent it all seemingly correctly and can't win s*** anyway (The Mets come to mind, among others).

 

The 2011 White Sox may have been disappointing thus far, but I can't really see them playing much worse, and I can't pin this on the organization, nor have I lost faith or patience. I will not blame OG/KW for Adam Dunn and Alex Rios having the WORST slumps of their respective careers, for Peavy's unforeseen injury problems, for Beckham turning from can't miss to Crede-lite, for Juan Pierre forgetting how to field. I will not blame this organization for a host of veteran relievers blowing the f*** up. I will not blame this organization for John Danks' uncharacteristic, bewildering numbers.

 

Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization.

 

I really wish other people believed that too.

 

I agree with you. I think this is a good organization in the overall picture. This should be a good discussion as many here micromanage and don't always see the big picture, wins. A team can only control their games and their wins. Even though the team has done well over the past number of years combined, your going to get the "what have they done the past 3 , 2 or 1 years." comments from many. That is a valid point but again individual things happen in a given year that is beyond the control of the team. We were weak in offense last year. The team went out and got one of the most consistent offensive production players in recent memory (Dunn, although that style of play still drives me crazy). He of course has the worst year of his career, probably due to the change in leagues, position and added pressure. I still think the plan was good but it just hasn't worked out so far.

 

It is a good organization. It wins more than most teams.

 

[chw42]

$130 million better win you a bad division.

 

Yes, you can look to the past and put everything into the context of the big picture, but is it really necessary to do that when the past is the past and the present presents a situation where the context is completely different?

 

This is the most money this team has ever spent on a roster, yet it has resulted in a team 4 games under .500 that gets its ass kicked by teams under .500. People have a right to be pissed off.

[Jerksticks]

We'll all play just the tip, but we don't like it.

[BigSqwert]

Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization.

 

I really wish other people believed that too.

 

You can believe that this is a playoff and World Series contender but to most of us that's not very apparent. There have been numerous people that have cited this year how we've had arguably the most talent and the highest or 2nd highest payroll in our division each year in the past decade. We have underachieved under this regime more often than not and should have had a 90s Atlanta Braves type run given the circumstances.

 

But I guess since we sucked in the 70s I should feel better about the terrible drafting, youth development, personnel decisions, and in-game managing that we have seen under the Kenny/Ozzie era.

[chetkincaid]

I wonder how many fans on this board were alive during the 70s and 80s when the White Sox won 1 division title in 20 years and usually finished in 3rd or 4th place with 70 something wins. Of the ones that were alive, I wonder if they can really get back in touch with what it felt like to be a fan of this team during that era, and put it in context.

 

Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins.

 

Yes, our payroll has increased. Yes, the expectations have been higher recently. Yes, there have been some depressing results at times, particularly in our own division. Is it because we are agonizingly close? I hope that's the conclusion. Because if it's not, I have news for you: this is not a s*** organization. This organization is one of the best in the American League, year in and year out. You'd never know it from reading this board, though.

 

It is astounding to me that there is absolutely no faith and no patience in this organization, this coach and this general manager. We've won 88+ games in 4 of the past six seasons. How many other teams have won 88+ games in four of the past six seasons? Four: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies. That's it. Not your precious Twins, not the big-spending, bumbling big-market Mets, not the Dodgers of lore, not the Cubs. 25 of 30 teams haven't done it. The White Sox have.

 

And yet, everyone is seemingly as frustrated as if they have waited 20 years for a divisional title. This team has won a World Series recently, under this management's watch, and yet you would never know it from the faithlessness around here. Really, what gives? Sure, you can blather on about Guillen's lack of in-game managerial skills while conveniently overlooking his other intangibles (his ability to deflect media heat from his players, his ability to keep his team motivated (even allegedly cantankerous ones like AJP and Jurassic Carl), his ability to be hands-off when nobody would dare notice it. You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here.

 

You need to look no further than 12 miles north if you want to know how difficult it is to win in this game consistently, even with a large payroll. Whether or not you believe in curses, that team has fielded young talent, experienced managers, veteran leaders. They can't win s*** to save their damned lives. I can cite 5 more examples of teams who spent it all seemingly correctly and can't win s*** anyway (The Mets come to mind, among others).

 

The 2011 White Sox may have been disappointing thus far, but I can't really see them playing much worse, and I can't pin this on the organization, nor have I lost faith or patience. I will not blame OG/KW for Adam Dunn and Alex Rios having the WORST slumps of their respective careers, for Peavy's unforeseen injury problems, for Beckham turning from can't miss to Crede-lite, for Juan Pierre forgetting how to field. I will not blame this organization for a host of veteran relievers blowing the f*** up. I will not blame this organization for John Danks' uncharacteristic, bewildering numbers.

 

Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization.

 

I really wish other people believed that too.

 

Excellent post! I still don't get how you can blame KW for Rios, Dunn and Beckham. He's not out there swinging the bat. And there was so much enthusiam on this board when Dunn was signed. People wanted to kiss KW's pinky ring. Now some of those same people want him fired.

 

[fathom]

"but I can't seem them playing much worse".....oh boy, last time this was said on here, we know what happened.

 

I will say that I'm not going to go out of my way to call for Ozzie's head during the year anymore, as he should be fired if they don't make the playoffs. However, we all know it won't happen during the season.

[Milkman delivers]

Ah, the old "we aren't as bad as we used to be, so be happy" argument. You can talk about their final records all you want, but the fact of the matter is that they always do just enough to still fail. Two division titles in ten years isn't sufficient for the team that has had the highest or second-highest payroll each of those years. You can cry all you want about a lack of faith from the fans, but the fact seems to be that KW and OG are gone if/when they fail again this year. And they deserve it.

[chw42]

Ah, the old "we aren't as bad as we used to be, so be happy" argument. You can talk about their final records all you want, but the fact of the matter is that they always do just enough to still fail. Two division titles in ten years isn't sufficient for the team that has had the highest or second-highest payroll each of those years. You can cry all you want about a lack of faith from the fans, but the fact seems to be that KW and OG are gone if/when they fail again this year. And they deserve it.

 

This is the kind of stuff you reminiscence about when you're on your death bed.

[Milkman delivers]

We'll all play just the tip, but we don't like it.

 

Awesome!

 

And to ptatc, the total wins aren't as important as division titles.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Milkman delivers

[TheChrisSamsa]

I understand that inflated payroll means inflated expectations, but am I the only one who hates the "they're spending more than ever and not winning, we're mad!" argument?

[elrockinMT]

Be patient all you Soxtalk fans. We can still win. Things will turnaround and in the second half we will rake and all will be good again in the world. We need to step it up, but we can and will. I am not calling for anyone to be fired, demoted, but maybe we wil see a promotion? Everyone seems to think Dayan Viciedo is the answer. Maybe he can help for sure, but we need a spot for him. If he is with the big team he should be playing not sitting..

Edited June 17, 2011 by elrockinMT

[TheChrisSamsa]

Awesome!

 

And to ptatc, the total wind aren't as important as division titles.

 

But division titles aren't as important as getting to the ALCS, and getting to the ALCS isn't as important as getting to the World Series, and getting to the World Series isn't as important as winning the World Series, and winning the World Series isn't as important as winning the World Series twice, and winning the World Series twice isn't as important as becoming the Yankees.

[fathom]

Be patient all you Soxtalk fans. We can still win. Things will turnaround and in the second half we will rake and all will be good again in the world. We need to step it up, but we can and will. I am not calling for anyone to be fired, demoted, but maybe we wil see a promotion? Everyone seems to think Dayan Viciedo is the answer. Maybe he can help for sure, but we need a spot for him. If he is with the big team he should be playing not sitting..

 

A spot for him? The Make-a-Wish caliber left fielder we have should be sent to the Frontier League.

[BigSqwert]

But division titles aren't as important as getting to the ALCS, and getting to the ALCS isn't as important as getting to the World Series, and getting to the World Series isn't as important as winning the World Series, and winning the World Series isn't as important as winning the World Series twice, and winning the World Series twice isn't as important as becoming the Yankees.

So I guess we'll just be happy to come in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place more often than not....in one of the weakest divisions in baseball.

Edited June 17, 2011 by BigSqwert

[Milkman delivers]

The Pierre situation is another thing. How can one have faith in an organization that refuses to make the most blatantly simple and obvious move of replacing the worst player in baseball with a stud prospect who is lighting the world on fire?

[fathom]

The Pierre situation is another thing. How can one have faith in an organization that refuses to make the most blatantly simple and obvious move of replacing the worst player in baseball with a stud prospect who is lighting the world on fire?

 

I really don't understand how Viciedo isn't thought of as a top 10-20 prospect in baseball.

[SoxAce]

I really don't understand how Viciedo isn't thought of as a top 10-20 prospect in baseball.

 

Yea, say what you will about the sox farm (and it is well deserved of it) but that guy is legit.

[Milkman delivers]

I really don't understand how Viciedo isn't thought of as a top 10-20 prospect in baseball.

 

I just hope he gets a chance to play for the big league club before Kenny trades him for AJ Burnett or someone.

[chw42]

I really don't understand how Viciedo isn't thought of as a top 10-20 prospect in baseball.

 

Very little plate discipline, poor defense.

 

But he's a hell of a hitter.

[TheChrisSamsa]

So I guess we'll just be happy to come in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place more often than not....in one of the weakest divisions in baseball.

 

The White Sox have finished fourth once since 1990. (5%)

The White Sox have finished third five times since 1990. (25%)

The White Sox have finished second ten times since 1990. (50%)

The White Sox have finished first four times since 1990. (20%)

 

This is a pretty solid ratio for a 20 year period.

[ILMOU]

I really don't understand how Viciedo isn't thought of as a top 10-20 prospect in baseball.

 

Indeed. But I'd imagine if a list were made today, he'd be getting a lot more love from the experts.

[chw42]

The White Sox have finished fourth once since 1990. (5%)

The White Sox have finished third five times since 1990. (25%)

The White Sox have finished second ten times since 1990. (50%)

The White Sox have finished first four times since 1990. (20%)

 

This is a pretty solid ratio for a 20 year period.

 

Honestly, this is the problem.

 

Contending is a good thing, but if during a 20 year stretch, you contend in 10 of them and come up short, it is very apparent that you have failed to put your team over the top.

[caulfield12]

You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here.

 

Stability? Seriously, you're joking. I'm not even sure how to look this up, but there's been more roster turnover from the point after the 2005 championship through 2011 than any other organization in the game.

 

That's the whole problem with his approach....he's like the mad scientist throwing together odd combinations of talent from 100 different directions and organizations and hoping they'll all jell together.

 

Please define one thing our organization is known for around the game of baseball? We have ZERO identity. Williams and Guillen have run off and ditched "winning" ballplayers like Uribe and Cabrera while trying to amass the most talented roster with players who simply don't/didn't fit like Rios, Javy and Swisher.

 

Your analogies are the same ones I used to make when many defended this organization in the past. Last time I checked, the Cubs weren't winning the attendance championship or the Sox a trophy for highest winning percentage with fewest division titles ring. Didn't know they were giving it out this year.

 

You mention 2008-2010, but you conveniently skipped over how 2007 and late 2006 completely wiped out any momentum this organization had in terms of taking back the city from the Cubs and "branding" a new generation of youngsters in Chicago as White Sox fans for life. Instead, we're left with this constant soap opera and sniping back and forth between Williams and Guillen that is the antithesis of stability.

 

We still don't have a coherent drafting philosophy that's discernible. We have never come close to bringing up "waves" of players together in the minors....players that learn the "White Sox Way," learn how to win together and are promoted together a step at a time, learn how to handle success and failure at the minor league level (see Beckham, Gordon) as well as correct fundamentals from a pitching and hitting standpoint so that they "hit the ground running" when they reach the majors. The White Sox major league players are constantly struggling to adjust to chaos all around them...I could understand why they find it hard to trust each other when they're being thrown under the bus every other week when the team is playing poorly.

 

We hadn't really drafted a single "pure" baseball player in ages until Beckham, and now he's a shadow of his former self. All we did was collected athletes and tried to make them into baseball players, because that's what KW was...a football player playing baseball but with a football mentality.

 

Everett and Rowand were right....with each Crede, Uribe and Cabrera lost from that clubhouse, the leadership vortex shifted to the point where there's no longer anyone in the clubhouse who has the personality to get in anyone's face and lead this team. AJ used to be like that, but his skills and respect in the clubhouse have to be waning. Konerko and Buehrle will never be those personalities....neither will Alexei. Danks and Buehrle might not be around much longer. We all expected and predicted Gordon Beckham would become that player and the abyss he's fallen into is reflected on the disarray in the organization and the lack of answers for how to get some of these guys turned around. We just have too many nice guys (like Juan Pierre, Adam Dunn or Mark Teahen) and not enough Peavy's.

Edited June 17, 2011 by caulfield12