no faith and no patience in this organization

[lord chas]

this is a big market team with passionate fans like ourselves. championships should be the one and only goal

[BigSqwert]

Excellent post caulfield.

[TheChrisSamsa]

Honestly, this is the problem.

 

Contending is a good thing, but if during a 20 year stretch, you contend in 10 of them and come up short, it is very apparent that you have failed to put your team over the top.

 

I agree, but I don't see it as a reason to be discontent with my favorite team:

 

Loving the White Sox is like loving the girl you hooked up with once, in 2005, but ended up in the "friend zone." We've had the sustained, albeit moderate, success, but we've only had the glory once, and we want it over and over again.

 

[caulfield12]

Honestly, this is the problem.

 

Contending is a good thing, but if during a 20 year stretch, you contend in 10 of them and come up short, it is very apparent that you have failed to put your team over the top.

 

Great, we're the Adlai Stevensons of the baseball world.

[bmags]

That actually...was...a...great, coherent caulfield post!

[Steve9347]

$130 million better win you a bad division.

No s***. The organization itself said they were "all-in", anything short of the division should equal some fired bodies.

[Milkman delivers]

Agreed, awesome post by Caulfield.

[caulfield12]

That actually...was...a...great, coherent caulfield post!

 

 

Glad I restrained my desire to throw in quotes from J4L, Mark Harmon/Gibbs from NCIS (another managerial candidate), Harvard philosophy professor Michael Sandel and The Green Lantern on "courage and hope versus fear" (of the Twins).

 

 

[bmags]

Glad I restrained my desire to throw in quotes from J4L, Mark Harmon/Gibbs from NCIS (another managerial candidate), Harvard philosophy professor Michael Sandel and The Green Lantern on "courage and hope versus fear" (of the Twins).

 

hahahahaha

[Steve9347]

Yea, say what you will about the sox farm (and it is well deserved of it) but that guy is legit.

If only we had room for him on our roster, but with Juan Pierre raking, I just don't see it happening.

[BigSqwert]

If only we had room for him on our roster, but with Juan Pierre raking, I just don't see it happening.

And I'd hate to cut into those limited ABs that Pierre is getting.

[Iwritecode]

Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins.

 

Sadly, the ALC winners have averaged 92 wins since 1996. The Sox are usually just good enough to finish in second.

 

 

[caulfield12]

If only we had room for him on our roster, but with Juan Pierre raking, I just don't see it happening.

 

 

There should be zero concern for Roger Bossard.

 

Viciedo's natural stroke will crush the same number of grass blades on the right side of the infield as Pierre's cavalcade of 4-3 pull hook grounders.

 

As a matter of fact....like Arizona with that cutout between the mound and plate, they should plant lumescent green runway lights in the grass pointing like an arrow between the bag and second baseman and light them up whenever Beckham, Rios and Quentin are hitting to remind them to stay locked in and go up the middle and to the right side.

 

 

Just saw a new wikipedia entry..."Jordan4Life instituted a reign of terror during the infamous 2011 White Sox Revolt in an effort to keep the revolution pure and to shut down all opposition to his will."

Edited June 17, 2011 by caulfield12

[DirtySox]

I really don't understand how Viciedo isn't thought of as a top 10-20 prospect in baseball.

 

It's because he isn't eligible for most prospect lists. His rookie status was exhausted last year.

Edited June 17, 2011 by DirtySox

[Greg Hibbard]

Milkman - "we're better than we used to be, so we should be happy" is a straw man. I brought up the past to frame that the level of faithlessness around here was commiserate with that era, not this one, and to provide some context.

 

That said, certainly, I have been pretty satisfied with the fact that our team competes nearly every season, which provides me with SOME FAITH in the leadership and organization as a whole. See, somehow lost in these three pages is my central point - that 90% of this board has absolutely zero faith in this organization, GM and manager. Really, think about this point for a second. It's astounding. Given their track record over the past 7 years (and in a larger sense two decades) - is is really appropriate in 2011 to have zero faith in this organization, GM and manager?

 

Let's talk about the payroll for a second, because it was brought up. In 2004, the first year of Guillen's tenure, the Sox had a 65 million dollar payroll, injuries to their two best hitters, and still won 83 games. In 2005, they had the 13th highest payroll and won the World Series. They didn't have a top 5 payroll in 2010, they didn't even have a top 10 payroll in 2009! In 2008 they won the division. So even if we consider 2010 a "disappointment" compared to the payroll, less than half the seasons can be summed up disappointments. In 2011, the book is still out, as much as it seemingly makes some people seethe.

 

Edited June 17, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[ptatc]

Awesome!

And to ptatc, the total wins aren't as important as division titles.

 

This is where we disagree. The only thing a team can control is their own wins. I prefer the consistent team that wins as opposed to the division title view. For example, would you rather have the marlins situation or the Sox. The Sox are consistent good but only win the WS once. But I enjoy seeing them win and have a good team regularly. The Marlins on the other hand have won 2 WS but have been really bad in others.

 

It is only a matter of what you want to see. I understand your view and what you want but I prefer the consistently good team as opposed to the Marlins version.

[fathom]

Given their track record over the past 7 years (and in a larger sense two decades) - is is really appropriate in 2011 to have zero faith in this organization, GM and manager?

 

Next time Kenny Williams wins a trade, it will be the first time since the Quentin one. He's on a very, very bad stretch right now and that's why so many people are frustrated with him. NO ONE blames Kenny for signing Dunn. It was a great move and a great deal for the Sox...it just hasn't panned out so far. You can't say that the trade Kenny has failed with were "great deals" at the time.

[caulfield12]

Milkman - "we're better than we used to be, so we should be happy" is a straw man. I brought up the past to frame that the level of faithlessness around here was commiserate with that era, not this one, and to provide some context.

 

That said, certainly, I have been pretty satisfied with the fact that our team competes nearly every season, which provides me with SOME FAITH in the leadership and organization as a whole. See, somehow lost in these three pages is my central point - that 90% of this board has absolutely zero faith in this organization, GM and manager. Really, think about this point for a second. It's astounding. Given their track record over the past 7 years (and in a larger sense two decades) - is is really appropriate in 2011 to have zero faith in this organization, GM and manager?

 

Let's talk about the payroll for a second, because it was brought up. In 2004, the first year of Guillen's tenure, the Sox had a 65 million dollar payroll, injuries to their two best hitters, and still won 83 games. In 2005, they had the 13th highest payroll and won the World Series. They didn't have a top 5 payroll in 2010, they didn't even have a top 10 payroll in 2009! In 2008 they won the division. So even if we consider 2010 a "disappointment" compared to the payroll, less than half the seasons can be summed up disappointments. In 2011, the book is still out, as much as it seemingly makes some people seethe.

 

I think you meant commensurate. Commiserating is what we all do after a Twins series.

 

Now you're backtracking from calling out the entire board, dark clouds and doomsayers to just having "some" faith? Nobody has ZERO faith. It's simply a matter of ZERO FAITH that Ozzie and KW can work together well, efficiently or on the same page.

 

Once again, this month, we're seeing fault lines forming around what to do with Pena/Gray or Viciedo/Pierre or Lillibridge/Pierre. Do you really believe that all the oars in this organization are pulling in the same direction, in complete synchronization?

 

Payroll is only relative to what other teams in the division are spending. Even then, it's pointless. Do the Marlins get some type of "lowest dollar cost average spending per victory" trophy every year? Should we give out first place to the team that manages to make the most profit, or give teams operating with the highest ROI home field advantage in the playoffs?

 

Last time I checked, the A's, Twins or Rays couldn't go out and add $30 million in salaries to their playoff rosters when it came time to face the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels.

 

If you want us to be ranked by efficiency of spending over the last decade in our own division, we're twenty thousand leagues behind the Twins, roughly at par with the Indians (they have 2001-2002, 2005, 2007 and 2011 so far) and arguably only more effective than the Tigers, who are the odds on favorites now to win the division. The Royals, you'll get 10 different answers here....but you can be sure their future is undoubtedly brighter for FINALLY following a plan or strategy, not being distracted from the "master plan" and focusing like a laser beam on the final destination of 2012-2015.

[southsider2k5]

I think you meant commensurate. Commiserating is what we all do after a Twins series.

 

Now you're backtracking from calling out the entire board, dark clouds and doomsayers to just having "some" faith? Nobody has ZERO faith. It's simply a matter of ZERO FAITH that Ozzie and KW can work together well, efficiently or on the same page.

 

Once again, this month, we're seeing fault lines forming around what to do with Pena/Gray or Viciedo/Pierre or Lillibridge/Pierre. Do you really believe that all the oars in this organization are pulling in the same direction, in complete synchronization?

Payroll is only relative to what other teams in the division are spending. Even then, it's pointless. Do the Marlins get some type of "lowest dollar cost average spending per victory" trophy every year? Should we give out first place to the team that manages to make the most profit, or give teams operating with the highest ROI home field advantage in the playoffs?

 

Last time I checked, the A's, Twins or Rays couldn't go out and add $30 million in salaries to their playoff rosters when it came time to face the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels.

 

If you want us to be ranked by efficiency of spending over the last decade in our own division, we're twenty thousand leagues behind the Twins, roughly at par with the Indians (they have 2001-2002, 2005, 2007 and 2011 so far) and arguably only more effective than the Tigers, who are the odds on favorites now to win the division. The Royals, you'll get 10 different answers here....but you can be sure their future is undoubtedly brighter for FINALLY following a plan or strategy, not being distracted from the "master plan" and focusing like a laser beam on the final destination of 2012-2015.

 

You realize that this is an impossible standard, right?

[Milkman delivers]

So I just decided to go back and check the winning percentages for Ozzie Guillen and Jerry Manuel.

 

.514 (which equals about 83 wins a year)

 

.525 (which equals about 85 wins a year)

 

Not a big difference.

[Greg Hibbard]

To recap what I said yesterday, what I find most striking is that a single 0-2 stretch, on the heels of a 22-13 stretch, can cause the doomsayers to completely rule this board.

 

Caulfield, you say the "fault lines" between Pierre and Viciedo have emerged this month. Setting aside Pierre's defense (which would be interesting to compare to Viciedo), what about his .286 avg, .365 obp, 4/1 SB/CS did you take exception to over the course of May? Certainly his aggregate stats have been bad, but what would you have had Ozzie do after a single bad month - pull him? After a .286/.365 May, he's going to pull him? Certainly he should be on a much shorter leash given his aggregate stats and regression to slump form maybe NOW, but characterizing this as a massive length of time that Viciedo should have been considered feels revisionist, especially given how people conveniently doubletalk regarding the effects of rushing other folks to the majors.

 

Yes, I meant commensurate.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[Milkman delivers]

I think you meant commensurate. Commiserating is what we all do after a Twins series.

 

Now you're backtracking from calling out the entire board, dark clouds and doomsayers to just having "some" faith? Nobody has ZERO faith. It's simply a matter of ZERO FAITH that Ozzie and KW can work together well, efficiently or on the same page.

 

Once again, this month, we're seeing fault lines forming around what to do with Pena/Gray or Viciedo/Pierre or Lillibridge/Pierre. Do you really believe that all the oars in this organization are pulling in the same direction, in complete synchronization?

 

Payroll is only relative to what other teams in the division are spending. Even then, it's pointless. Do the Marlins get some type of "lowest dollar cost average spending per victory" trophy every year? Should we give out first place to the team that manages to make the most profit, or give teams operating with the highest ROI home field advantage in the playoffs?

 

Last time I checked, the A's, Twins or Rays couldn't go out and add $30 million in salaries to their playoff rosters when it came time to face the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels.

 

If you want us to be ranked by efficiency of spending over the last decade in our own division, we're twenty thousand leagues behind the Twins, roughly at par with the Indians (they have 2001-2002, 2005, 2007 and 2011 so far) and arguably only more effective than the Tigers, who are the odds on favorites now to win the division. The Royals, you'll get 10 different answers here....but you can be sure their future is undoubtedly brighter for FINALLY following a plan or strategy, not being distracted from the "master plan" and focusing like a laser beam on the final destination of 2012-2015.

 

You are killing it today, my friend.

[bmags]

that's because when you have a stretch in the beginning of the season every year where you put yourself a large number below .500 and then climb back at an unsustainable winning pace, you then begin to go back to a sustainable pace and lose the division because of another s***ty april/may under your manager/GM. And each time we'll have said "this division is winnable!"

[LittleHurt05]

So I just decided to go back and check the winning percentages for Ozzie Guillen and Jerry Manuel.

 

.514 (which equals about 83 wins a year)

 

.525 (which equals about 85 wins a year)

 

Not a big difference.

 

Manuel Division Titles: 1

Guillen Division Titles: 2

 

Manuel Playoff Victories: 0

Guillen Playoff Victories: 12

[Milkman delivers]

To recap what I said yesterday, what I find most striking is that a single 0-2 stretch, on the heels of a 22-13 stretch, can cause the doomsayers to completely rule this board.

 

Caulfield, you say the "fault lines" between Pierre and Viciedo have emerged this month. Setting aside Pierre's defense (which would be interesting to compare to Viciedo), what about his .286 avg, .365 obp, 4/1 SB/CS did you take exception to over the course of May? Certainly his aggregate stats have been bad, but what would you have had Ozzie do after a single bad month - pull him? After a .286/.365 May, he's going to pull him? Certainly he should be on a much shorter leash given his aggregate stats and regression to slump form maybe NOW, but characterizing this as a massive length of time that Viciedo should have been considered feels revisionist, especially given how people conveniently doubletalk regarding the effects of rushing other folks to the majors.

 

Yes, I meant commensurate.

 

People have been asking for Viciedo since April. Nothing about that is revisionist. And to say that an 0-2 stretch causes the doomsayers to completely rule this board is actually revisionist. It's not all sunshine and happiness when they win a game. Many, many of us are consistently down on the team because we aren't fooled by a win or two. I feel like it's you who is revising history.