no faith and no patience in this organization

[ptatc]

Yeah I hope you don't give the kiddies too much grief for getting a B.

A 'B' is not so bad.

 

They know the expectations and what they are capable of. There are rewards for A's and less so for B's. But like was stated before there are times in life when excellence is expected and other where it's fun. Excelling in school (or not) is a life changer. Whether the Sox have a good team and miss the playoffs is not.

[Real]

How hard is it to get rid of Pierre? You tell him to pack up his s*** and have security escort him out.

thats not how it works in the big leagues, the only realistic option we can hope for is Pierre either traded, or we package Teahen in a deal with Edwin or another of our starting pitchers, we bench Pierre for the rest of the year, and Viciedo is our new LF

 

No way in hell this team flat out releases Pierre

[kjshoe04]

thats not how it works in the big leagues, the only realistic option we can hope for is Pierre either traded, or we package Teahen in a deal with Edwin or another of our starting pitchers, we bench Pierre for the rest of the year, and Viciedo is our new LF

 

No way in hell this team flat out releases Pierre

Why the hell not? Because he's Ozzies guy? He's washed up and on the last year of his deal. Seems like the perfect opportunity to flat out release him. I don't want him taking up a roster spot. He can go to Charlotte if he wants or he can be released would be the two options I would give him.

[Real]

Why the hell not? Because he's Ozzies guy? He's washed up and on the last year of his deal. Seems like the perfect opportunity to flat out release him. I don't want him taking up a roster spot. He can go to Charlotte if he wants or he can be released would be the two options I would give him.

 

Because its rare that a team just walks up to their starting leadoff hitter, who has been playing everyday, and says we're letting you go, just out of the blue. If his time with the Sox is coming to an end, we'll know because his playing time will start to decrease, and you'll probably see more Lillibridge

 

They'll dump him to an NL team and pick up most of his salary, instead of flat out dumping him to the waiver wire. Big league teams rarely do that to guys respected by their teammates and coaches. It sets a bad precedent and message to future possible Sox players

 

Rios is an example of this happening, though the circumstances were different

[kjshoe04]

Because its rare that a team just walks up to their starting leadoff hitter, who has been playing everyday, and says we're letting you go, just out of the blue. If his time with the Sox is coming to an end, we'll know because his playing time will start to decrease, and you'll probably see more Lillibridge

 

They'll dump him to an NL team and pick up most of his salary, instead of flat out dumping him to the waiver wire. Big league teams rarely do that to guys respected by their teammates and coaches. It sets a bad precedent and message to future possible Sox players

 

Rios is an example of this happening, though the circumstances were different

Obviously I said it in a rash way, I'd sit him down and let him know the situation. Tell him that we are going to attempt to trade him and if there are no takers then we will grant him his release because he won't see much time. I wouldn't actually condone saying get the f*** out of this clubhouse.

[caulfield12]

We have done it a few times recently, most notably with MacDougal and eating Linebrink's contract, but that was in the offseason.

 

Teahen, Pierre, AJ (because of 2012), Dunn, Rios, Peavy, Matt Thornton (as a set-up man signed to a pseudo-closer's deal) and Buehrle (although you can't argue with his pitching since the end of April, he's definitely worth close to his contract numbers) all to one extent or another represent "bloated" contracts.

 

Can some of that change? We'll just have to cross our fingers and find it. By my count, that's 7 or 8 players, roughly 30% of the roster.

 

For a long, long time in this decade, KW was very very good with not making these kinds of mistakes. The only real arguments about "bad" contracts centered on Konerko (a few off stretches which now look more and more like aberrations), Contreras and the bullpen mess with MacDougal, Linebrink and Dotel (to a lesser extent). Perhaps Jenks too, the last couple of years, but that's arguable.

Edited June 17, 2011 by caulfield12

[ottawa_sox]

Certainly wouldn't shoulder that much of the blame on KW. He did his job. If every1 had done what they were supposed to do we would have ran away with this division. But instead its been the opposite. Pierre, Rios and Dunn all have sucked big time this yr, Johnny Danks had a horrible start, and our bullpen blew us a handful of games. So i Don't blame Kenny on this one. Its the players fault, all Ozzie can do is just hope these guys can get out of it. Thats what upsets every1 on this board, which I see as pathetic. Ya Pierre absolutely blows, but I don't blame Ozzie sticking with him. If he gave Rios and Dunn that much time then y not Pierre.

 

Yes we have Viciedo waiting, but getting rid of Pierre or Teahen for that matter is not that easy.

I feel there is too much unwaranted blame on the management and coaching which is not deserved.

 

Despite my frustration, I mostly agree with this assessment. The one thing I wish the sox were better at is drafting and developing. Kenny's approach of tweaking the roster each off-season rekindles my hope. I would hate to be a fan of the many teams that stand pat with little hope (i.e. sox of the 70s and 80s). It's a tough proposition, grabbing piesces here and there and having it jell. At least he did pull it off once and for me, a fan for 50 years, it was recent enough that part of me believes he could strike gold again. At the same time, I am not surprised when things don't work. Rios typlifies the problem in capsule form. He was let go by the Jays for a reason. Yet his talent level is such that it would not be a shock for him to have a big season at the same time as other key Sox (Kenny's all in) players - Peavy, Dunn, Pierre .... Mostly I continue to think that the Sox can hang around long enough for these juys to catch fire at the right time. And yes I wish Viciedo was in left and Pierre was not starting so much. And considering the success and failure of all other teams, I grudgingly salute the Twins.

[lostfan]

Glad I restrained my desire to throw in quotes from J4L, Mark Harmon/Gibbs from NCIS (another managerial candidate), Harvard philosophy professor Michael Sandel and The Green Lantern on "courage and hope versus fear" (of the Twins).

I lol'd

[soxrwhite]

I was around in the 70's and 80's much of the 60's too. Better than it used to be? The Sox had some terrible teams but also some very good teams. Much like today they were close but no cigar. I mean one Championship in 94 years!! C'mon.............. I love my White Sox and always will, but we can't settle for winning seasons. We- gotta-win- championships-more -often. Otherwise it is still not success.

[JohnCangelosi]

You can't just put aside his defense, as that has single-handedly lost us three games this year. Kinda ironic how Lillibridge's defense has won us 2-3 games this year already. As for rushing Viciedo to the majors, I think that's ridiculous. He showed last year he belongs, he showed in ST he belongs, and he's putting up numbers in AAA that the rest of our pathetic farm system could only dream of. He's a major league caliber player who's playing in the minors, which Juan is the total opposite.

+10000000000000

[Dick Allen]

The White Sox have had the fortune of playing KC, Cleveland, and for the most part Detroit 18 times a year the past 10 seasons or so. 84 wins should not be acceptable. Except for 2005 and a couple of other years, the pattern seems to hold true. You think they have a good team. They fall flat on their face, play crappy ball for 3 or 4 months, rally to get back in it and fall apart at the end. They win 83 or 84 games and 5 years later the year is called a success because in the 70s the Sox really sucked. I call BS. Win the division. Make the playoffs. You have had a big advantage over your division foes for years and have squandered it far too often.

 

2005 is something they will always be able to hang their hat on and rightfully so, but if a couple of crazy things didn't happen against Boston, like a ball going through Graffinino's legs and El Duque, a guy KW didn't even want on the postseason roster not pitching out of a jam, they might still be looking for their first postseason series win in 94 years, and I'm sure Ozzie and KW would have very little support from anyone on this website.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

The White Sox have had the fortune of playing KC, Cleveland, and for the most part Detroit 18 times a year the past 10 seasons or so. 84 wins should not be acceptable. Except for 2005 and a couple of other years, the pattern seems to hold true. You think they have a good team. They fall flat on their face, play crappy ball for 3 or 4 months, rally to get back in it and fall apart at the end. They win 83 or 84 games and 5 years later the year is called a success because in the 70s the Sox really sucked. I call BS. Win the division. Make the playoffs. You have had a big advantage over your division foes for years and have squandered it far too often.

 

2005 is something they will always be able to hang their hat on and rightfully so, but if a couple of crazy things didn't happen against Boston, like a ball going through Graffinino's legs and El Duque, a guy KW didn't even want on the postseason roster not pitching out of a jam, they might still be looking for their first postseason series win in 94 years, and I'm sure Ozzie and KW would have very little support from anyone on this website.

 

 

Not to mention AJ and the Angels. Contreras lost to Byrd, we were VERY VERY close to being down 2-0 in that series.

 

We made our own breaks too, but every possible thing that needed to happen broke our way from the end of that game through Game 4 of the WS.

 

2008 was a fun year too, because of Quentin, Ramirez, Danks and Floyd all emerging, but let's not pretend we were anything close to a dominant team coming down the stretch.

 

 

Edited June 18, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Not to mention AJ and the Angels. Contreras lost to Byrd, we were VERY VERY close to being down 2-0 in that series.

 

We made our own breaks too, but every possible thing that needed to happen broke our way from the end of that game through Game 4 of the WS.

 

2008 was a fun year too, because of Quentin, Ramirez, Danks and Floyd all emerging, but let's not pretend we were anything close to a dominant team coming down the stretch.

Dude... We weren't dominant down the stretch because Q wasn't there.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Dude... We weren't dominant down the stretch because Q wasn't there.

 

Exactly. When you lose the MVP favorite for a whole month, you are going to struggle.

[chisoxt]

Caufield's post echos the sentiments of a growing number of Sox fans.

 

It seems as though the WC of 2005 has mystified many fans who have endured years of mediocrity and irrelevence into accepting just about any load of crap Williams and Guillen dish out. From Kenny's meatball all-in trades that have gutted an already thin farm system to Ozzies childish rants, poor in-game managing and stubborness, I have seen enough. I am voting with my feet. Judging by the attendance this year, a lot of other fans are too.

[greg775]

They know the expectations and what they are capable of. There are rewards for A's and less so for B's. But like was stated before there are times in life when excellence is expected and other where it's fun. Excelling in school (or not) is a life changer. Whether the Sox have a good team and miss the playoffs is not.

 

At least you are not one of those parents who goes to the teacher to b**** when their precious youngster gets a B.

No wonder anybody with a brain refuses to be a teacher with overzealous parents of today.

I still think a B can be a decent grade. I'd give anything for the Sox to deserve a B right now.

 

I still think our team should be quicker with the trigger - fire Ozzie and KW now!

Our team has totally underacheved with this payroll.

Hudson kicking our ass tonight is another huge embarrassment since we gave him away.

Edited June 18, 2011 by greg775

[Dick Allen]

They know the expectations and what they are capable of. There are rewards for A's and less so for B's. But like was stated before there are times in life when excellence is expected and other where it's fun. Excelling in school (or not) is a life changer. Whether the Sox have a good team and miss the playoffs is not.

Isn't part of being a parent knowing what your child is capable of? For some, Bs are dissappointments, and could show a lack of effort and/or concentration. For some other kids, getting B's is actually quite an accomplishment. Not everyone's intellect is equal. I think looking at the Sox, we have been looking for As and B pluses but most of the time get Bs or B minuses or Cs. You are correct, whether the Sox win 100 or lose 100, its not really going to change anyone's life too much, but as fans which is short for fanatics, winning is important or we probably wouldn't be paying attention or posting on message boards. KW and Ozzie need more As. They have been given the means to accomplish it, and don't get it done too often.

[LittleHurt05]

2005 is something they will always be able to hang their hat on and rightfully so, but if a couple of crazy things didn't happen against Boston, like a ball going through Graffinino's legs and El Duque, a guy KW didn't even want on the postseason roster not pitching out of a jam, they might still be looking for their first postseason series win in 94 years, and I'm sure Ozzie and KW would have very little support from anyone on this website.

 

I love how everyone demands excellence & championships, yet disregards 2005 as a lucky fluke and won't give OG/KW any credit.

 

If you wanna argue that 2005 was 6 years ago and they have underacheived since then, that is fine, I completely understand and your arguments are warranted. But they did make all the right moves to win a title back in the day, and don't take that credit away just cause you hate them now.

[chisoxt]

I love how everyone demands excellence & championships, yet disregards 2005 as a lucky fluke and won't give OG/KW any credit.

 

If you wanna argue that 2005 was 6 years ago and they have underacheived since then, that is fine, I completely understand and your arguments are warranted. But they did make all the right moves to win a title back in the day, and don't take that credit away just cause you hate them now.

What upsets me is that it's obvious that both Kenny and Ozzie have handled their positions wrecklessly since that achievement, taking full advantage of the 'political capital' that came their way as a result of the title. I will never trade the WC for anything, but my biggest fear after they won in 2005 was that there would be a complete lack of accountability from both. It will be a very long time before this dysfuntional organization competes for anything meaningful.

[Dick Allen]

I love how everyone demands excellence & championships, yet disregards 2005 as a lucky fluke and won't give OG/KW any credit.

 

If you wanna argue that 2005 was 6 years ago and they have underacheived since then, that is fine, I completely understand and your arguments are warranted. But they did make all the right moves to win a title back in the day, and don't take that credit away just cause you hate them now.

Read the first sentence of what you are replying to, then pop off. I said they have every right to hang their hat on the championship.

[LittleHurt05]

Read the first sentence of what you are replying to, then pop off. I said they have every right to hang their hat on the championship.

 

You do say that. Then you immediately move on to say, BUT if this or that doesn't happen, then they aren't champions and no one cares about them. You give them the right to hang their hat, then with the next line you question how lucky they were to win that title. That's my beef. Every championship team has to get lucky occasionally, it happens. b**** about the last 6 years, b**** about the Twins, b**** about the Hudson trade, but don't say their 99 win team in 2005 got lucky because of one or two plays.

[kitekrazy]

But I guess since we sucked in the 70s I should feel better about the terrible drafting, youth development, personnel decisions, and in-game managing that we have seen under the Kenny/Ozzie era.

 

Veeck new he could never win in the free agent game so he decided to put his money in development. This is where changes need to be made but I wouldn't be surprised this organization will be stuck with waisting money on hit and miss free agents because of their hit and miss drafting and development.

 

 

[kitekrazy]

Excellent post! I still don't get how you can blame KW for Rios, Dunn and Beckham. He's not out there swinging the bat. And there was so much enthusiam on this board when Dunn was signed. People wanted to kiss KW's pinky ring. Now some of those same people want him fired.

 

Other find it easy to blame Kenny. Everyone knows the book on Rios, so he gambled. As for Beckham, he might have benefited with more time in the minors. He may have been brought up too soon because of the failed Josh Field experiment.

 

You have to wonder if having Sale in the pen is more harmful to his career than spending some time in the minors.

Edited June 18, 2011 by kitekrazy

[greg775]

Other find it easy to blame Kenny. Everyone knows the book on Rios, so he gambled. As for Beckham, he might have benefited with more time in the minors. He may have been brought up too soon because of the failed Josh Field experiment.

 

You have to wonder if having Sale in the pen is more harmful to his career than spending some time in the minors.

 

Rios really truly showed KW's weaknesses.

Do we not have scouts who watch players loaf??

Do we not care about players' attitudes. People mock some of our past cfs for being "grinders" but f***, Rios is a joke. KW should be able to find out that the guy has a penchant for loafing, for stealing paychecks.

It's all on KW.

 

This Beckham slump is really mystifying and sad. He should be better than this.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Other find it easy to blame Kenny. Everyone knows the book on Rios, so he gambled. As for Beckham, he might have benefited with more time in the minors. He may have been brought up too soon because of the failed Josh Field experiment.

 

Or maybe he's just not that good? We've had 2+ years to get a feel of his true skillset. The verdict is in: he doesn't really have many skills. You look at a guy like Andrew McCutchen and the skills smack you upside the head. You don't need to have a trained eye to recognize him.