no faith and no patience in this organization

[Jordan4life_2007]

Rios really truly showed KW's weaknesses.

Do we not have scouts who watch players loaf??

Do we not care about players' attitudes. People mock some of our past cfs for being "grinders" but f***, Rios is a joke. KW should be able to find out that the guy has a penchant for loafing, for stealing paychecks.

It's all on KW.

 

This Beckham slump is really mystifying and sad. He should be better than this.

 

Rios baffles me. Even when he was "showing signs" he wasn't hitting the ball with any authority whatsoever. He's basically a right-handed Juan Pierre in that regard.

[LittleHurt05]

Or maybe he's just not that good? We've had 2+ years to get a feel of his true skillset. The verdict is in: he doesn't really have many skills. You look at a guy like Andrew McCutchen and the skills smack you upside the head. You don't need to have a trained eye to recognize him.

 

Then how was he so successful his rookie season? Just blind luck? I'm not calling you out, but just wondering, do you think that was just a prolonged hot streak? Or has he regressed and shouldn't he be able to get those skills back at some point?

[kitekrazy]

Excellent post caulfield.

 

Werd!

[Jordan4life_2007]

Then how was he so successful his rookie season? Just blind luck? I'm not calling you out, but just wondering, do you think that was just a prolonged hot streak? Or has he regressed and shouldn't he be able to get those skills back at some point?

 

Basically, the league has made adjustments to him and he's failed to adjust back. His decline is no fluke. His BB rate has gone down each year while his K rate has gone up each year. The line drive, gap power he displayed in '09 has all but vanished. He can't hit a fastball. It's like Josh Fields all over again. I'd like it more if it was just breaking and offspeed pitches he struggled with. If you can't hit a FB you need to find another line of work.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jordan4life

[LittleHurt05]

Basically, the league has made adjustments to him and he's failed to adjust back. His decline is no fluke. His BB rate has gone down each year while his K rate has gone up each year. The line drive, gap power he displayed in '09 has all but vanished. He can't hit a fastball. It's like Josh Fields all over again. I'd like it more if it was just breaking and offspeed pitches he struggled with. If you can't hit a FB you need to find another line of work.

 

Thanks for ruining all the faith I had in Gordo turning it around, lol. There is one major thing that confuses me about him. He will sometimes have an at-bat where he battles, fouls off several pitches, til he gets a great swing on the ball, where he looks like a pro. Then the next day, he will go up there, strike out on 3 pitches, looking like Smalls in his first day in the Sandlot. Once in a while he shows signs of getting it, then he regresses to Brian f***ing Anderson.

[kitekrazy]

How hard is it to get rid of Pierre? You tell him to pack up his s*** and have security escort him out.

 

I have this theory that in professional sports that have guaranteed contracts, salary has a lot to do with playing time. Their economic rule is more important that winning. That's probably why you will never see Rios benched for any considerable time. You see it in the NFL with 1st round busts always existing and playing to the length of their contract that are not QBs.

 

[kitekrazy]

thats not how it works in the big leagues, the only realistic option we can hope for is Pierre either traded, or we package Teahen in a deal with Edwin or another of our starting pitchers, we bench Pierre for the rest of the year, and Viciedo is our new LF

 

No way in hell this team flat out releases Pierre

 

Unfortunately not all GMs are naive unless it's garbage for garbage. The difference here is that's very expensive garbage.

 

[Dick Allen]

You do say that. Then you immediately move on to say, BUT if this or that doesn't happen, then they aren't champions and no one cares about them. You give them the right to hang their hat, then with the next line you question how lucky they were to win that title. That's my beef. Every championship team has to get lucky occasionally, it happens. b**** about the last 6 years, b**** about the Twins, b**** about the Hudson trade, but don't say their 99 win team in 2005 got lucky because of one or two plays.

So you're saying the second part isn't true? All I'm say is if they didn't get the breaks then, I guarantee you wouldn't be defending either right now. KW had nothing to do with either, at least Ozzie had something to do with El Duque being in the game, although if it didn't work out, he would have been called nuts.

[Dick Allen]

Veeck new he could never win in the free agent game so he decided to put his money in development. This is where changes need to be made but I wouldn't be surprised this organization will be stuck with waisting money on hit and miss free agents because of their hit and miss drafting and development.

Veeck didn't put money anywhere except his pocket when he sold the team.

[LittleHurt05]

So you're saying the second part isn't true? All I'm say is if they didn't get the breaks then, I guarantee you wouldn't be defending either right now. KW had nothing to do with either, at least Ozzie had something to do with El Duque being in the game, although if it didn't work out, he would have been called nuts.

 

To be clear, I'm not defending what they have done the last few seasons and am not trying to save their present day jobs.

 

Yes, I am defending the fact that in 2005 KW got the horses and Ozzie led them to a 99-win season and 11-1 playoff run. To try and cheapen that because of one or two lucky breaks, which every champion tends to get, is funny to me. It's not like those moments were even in elimination games.

[Dick Allen]

To be clear, I'm not defending what they have done the last few seasons and am not trying to save their present day jobs.

 

Yes, I am defending the fact that in 2005 KW got the horses and Ozzie led them to a 99-win season and 11-1 playoff run. To try and cheapen that because of one or two lucky breaks, which every champion tends to get, is funny to me. It's not like those moments were even in elimination games.

Again, I'm not cheapening it at all, just mentioning the very fine line between being like Mike Ditka where you can do no wrong because you took one of the best teams of all time to the Super Bowl. or Lovie Smith, a guy a good percentage of Bears fans think doesn't deserve his job even though he took a team QB'd by Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl.

 

Living off 2005 needs to stop. Ozzie believes it should go on forever. For many it will. If the Sox come back and win 85 games this year and finish in 2nd place, I'm not going to be one of the guys who thinks of it as a successful season. Its been brutal. I don't think expecting them to make the playoffs as often as the Yankees and Boston is fair, but they do have and have had in the past and advantage over their division opponents. Back in the 70s and 80s and 90s, making the playoffs once every 5 years was a lot bigger accomplishment than it is now especially considering the Central Division.

[LittleHurt05]

Again, I'm not cheapening it at all, just mentioning the very fine line between being like Mike Ditka where you can do no wrong because you took one of the best teams of all time to the Super Bowl. or Lovie Smith, a guy a good percentage of Bears fans think doesn't deserve his job even though he took a team QB'd by Rex Grossman to the Super Bowl.

 

Living off 2005 needs to stop. Ozzie believes it should go on forever. For many it will. If the Sox come back and win 85 games this year and finish in 2nd place, I'm not going to be one of the guys who thinks of it as a successful season. Its been brutal. I don't think expecting them to make the playoffs as often as the Yankees and Boston is fair, but they do have and have had in the past and advantage over their division opponents. Back in the 70s and 80s and 90s, making the playoffs once every 5 years was a lot bigger accomplishment than it is now especially considering the Central Division.

 

I can't disagree with a single thing you said in that second part.

[TheChrisSamsa]

By this philosophy, do they get extra credit for winning a world series with a low payroll? If payroll is a dependent variable in the equation than there should be more credit early in the tenure of KW and Ozzie.

 

If someone would do the leg-work and weight each season based on championships/division titles/playoff wins/regular season wins per dollar spent on payroll, I'd be inclined to look at where KW stands against other GMs.

 

Nice, a Sox apologist

 

who f***ing cares how good this team was during the 70's and 80's?

 

you can have your 'perspective', i want my $110-$120 million dollar payroll team in the f***ing playoffs

 

I didn't know someone from the ownership group posted here.

 

 

2005 is something they will always be able to hang their hat on and rightfully so, but if a couple of crazy things didn't happen against Boston, like a ball going through Graffinino's legs and El Duque, a guy KW didn't even want on the postseason roster not pitching out of a jam, they might still be looking for their first postseason series win in 94 years, and I'm sure Ozzie and KW would have very little support from anyone on this website.

 

:lolhitting Come on... that team was in first place from beginning of April to the end of October. They went 11-1 in the playoffs. How can you justify boiling it down to one inning in the divisional round of the playoffs when they were up 2-0 in the series?!

 

[Milkman delivers]

The White Sox have had the fortune of playing KC, Cleveland, and for the most part Detroit 18 times a year the past 10 seasons or so. 84 wins should not be acceptable. Except for 2005 and a couple of other years, the pattern seems to hold true. You think they have a good team. They fall flat on their face, play crappy ball for 3 or 4 months, rally to get back in it and fall apart at the end. They win 83 or 84 games and 5 years later the year is called a success because in the 70s the Sox really sucked. I call BS. Win the division. Make the playoffs. You have had a big advantage over your division foes for years and have squandered it far too often.

 

2005 is something they will always be able to hang their hat on and rightfully so, but if a couple of crazy things didn't happen against Boston, like a ball going through Graffinino's legs and El Duque, a guy KW didn't even want on the postseason roster not pitching out of a jam, they might still be looking for their first postseason series win in 94 years, and I'm sure Ozzie and KW would have very little support from anyone on this website.

 

I love it when someone so thoroughly explains things like this.

[chw42]

The White Sox have had the fortune of playing KC, Cleveland, and for the most part Detroit 18 times a year the past 10 seasons or so. 84 wins should not be acceptable. Except for 2005 and a couple of other years, the pattern seems to hold true. You think they have a good team. They fall flat on their face, play crappy ball for 3 or 4 months, rally to get back in it and fall apart at the end. They win 83 or 84 games and 5 years later the year is called a success because in the 70s the Sox really sucked. I call BS. Win the division. Make the playoffs. You have had a big advantage over your division foes for years and have squandered it far too often.

 

2005 is something they will always be able to hang their hat on and rightfully so, but if a couple of crazy things didn't happen against Boston, like a ball going through Graffinino's legs and El Duque, a guy KW didn't even want on the postseason roster not pitching out of a jam, they might still be looking for their first postseason series win in 94 years, and I'm sure Ozzie and KW would have very little support from anyone on this website.

 

 

 

[soxrwhite]

Veeck didn't put money anywhere except his pocket when he sold the team.

 

 

Thats right, he owned the team twice and liquidated it both times he sold it. There was not much left for the new owners both times.

[greg775]

2005 is something they will always be able to hang their hat on and rightfully so, but if a couple of crazy things didn't happen against Boston, like a ball going through Graffinino's legs and El Duque, a guy KW didn't even want on the postseason roster not pitching out of a jam, they might still be looking for their first postseason series win in 94 years, and I'm sure Ozzie and KW would have very little support from anyone on this website.

 

I hate posts like this.

It cheapens our title. Every team that wins a title gets lucky. Even teams like the White Sox that don't lose one f***ing game in the World Series.

I wish people would shut up about 2005 on both sides of the argument.

We had a great team and won it all. We should enjoy it cause we probably won't win another in the next 20 years. Chicago teams just do not win baseball titles.

We won and it shouldn't be cheapened.

 

[Balta1701]

I hate posts like this.

It cheapens our title. Every team that wins a title gets lucky. Even teams like the White Sox that don't lose one f***ing game in the World Series.

I wish people would shut up about 2005 on both sides of the argument.

We had a great team and won it all. We should enjoy it cause we probably won't win another in the next 20 years. Chicago teams just do not win baseball titles.

We won and it shouldn't be cheapened.

The problem is...using the WS to defend what you're doing 6 years later sorta cheapens it too.

 

You're right that both sides should shut up about 2005. That just has to include Ozzie as well.

[Dick Allen]

If someone would do the leg-work and weight each season based on championships/division titles/playoff wins/regular season wins per dollar spent on payroll, I'd be inclined to look at where KW stands against other GMs.

 

 

 

I didn't know someone from the ownership group posted here.

 

 

 

 

:lolhitting Come on... that team was in first place from beginning of April to the end of October. They went 11-1 in the playoffs. How can you justify boiling it down to one inning in the divisional round of the playoffs when they were up 2-0 in the series?!

If a ball Graffinino makes the play on 999 times out of 1000 doesn't go through his legs and Iguchi homers the next hitter, the series is 1-1. If El Duque pitches like El Duque pitched the second half of 2005, the Sox would then be down 2-1 with Schilling raring to pitch. Take nothing away from that team, the were the World Champions and definitely earned it. I'm just pointing out however, even with the dominate numbers, they were very close to being in a very big bind, but since that didn't happen and they did win, KW and Ozzie are baseball geniuses who can do no wrong it a lot of peoples' eyes. Every team that wins a WS gets lucky.

 

I just want the stubborness to stop. There is no reason to play Pierre and Rios everyday unless you are just trying to prove a point. Ozzie needs to win games. He'll look a lot smarter sitting the guys who aren't getting it done and playing guys who have been productive.

[caulfield12]

I have to go with Dick Allen on this one.

 

Something has happened...a shift in the winds...hard to put your finger on exactly when it happened, but the "negative" balance of everything Ozzie brings to the table has started to outweigh the positives.

 

While seemingly every decision they've made has blown up in their faces (especially the Thornton to closer move), this year just feels more like 2009 or 2007. Still listen to or watch almost every game, but the excitement has largely gone out of this season. I know, I know...only 5 1/2 games out, the 2006 Cardinals foundered for most of the season, etc.

 

Obviously, it's possible they could still win the division, especially if Peavy has the impact he's capable of having. Personally, I feel...and I know this will come as a big surprise....most disappointed and disillusioned by their performance (and seeming lack of ability) against the Twins. If there was any year besides 2007 (when we also sucked) to step on the Twins, this was it. It's almost like you're more incredulous the Twins are about to pass the White Sox after being 20 games under .500 than you are that the Sox are still even in the division race.

 

I have USUALLY supported Ozzie and/or KW until this season...but we've just seen these guys struggling so much to work together that one of them has to go. You go back and forth, back and forth...on who really is MOST accountable for this mess. It's hard for me not to side with removing KW after the Thome/Kotsay fiasco last year, the desperation grab of Alex Rios...no point into going over every move he's made, sometimes the ones like Santos, Ramirez and HOPEFULLY Viciedo will turn out wonderfully, but this whole situation with Juan Pierre has really been the last straw. If KW or Ozzie is too afraid to make the tough call and is willing to jeopardize the season in the process, I just don't know what to think. Obviously something is "broken" with our offense, what's wrong with rewarding our best minor league hitter for the past 2 seasons (some would say one of our better major league hitters too) AND Lillibridge for actually working hard to improve and taking advantage of all the opportunities presented to them?

 

I just don't get it. Ozzie ran off Swisher so that he could play a career journeyman in Wise. Swisher had a long-term contract, too....it wasn't quite as hideous as Rios' over the long-term, but what's the worst thing that could happen? We learn that Lillibridge isn't suited for everyday play? Fine, but at least we'll know. One thing we do know is that Rios, based on 2009, isn't very likely to "get it" back together...and Juan Pierre certainly isn't going to suddenly gain a burst of speed or shot of confidence on the basepaths. Heck, I think Chris Getz would be more "dangerous" and intimidating as our leadoff history than Juan at this point.

 

It's these "cutting off the nose to spite the face" moves that are so disheartening. And then there's the whole Beckham situation and its inevitable fallout and ramifications for the long-term future if he's only a 650-700 OPS 2B.

 

 

[LittleHurt05]

If a ball Graffinino makes the play on 999 times out of 1000 doesn't go through his legs and Iguchi homers the next hitter, the series is 1-1. If El Duque pitches like El Duque pitched the second half of 2005, the Sox would then be down 2-1 with Schilling raring to pitch. Take nothing away from that team, the were the World Champions and definitely earned it. I'm just pointing out however, even with the dominate numbers, they were very close to being in a very big bind, but since that didn't happen and they did win, KW and Ozzie are baseball geniuses who can do no wrong it a lot of peoples' eyes. Every team that wins a WS gets lucky.

 

If the error doesn't happen, then they are down 4-2 in the 6th inning, but the inning starts off Iguchi/Dye/PK, instead of PK/Everett/Rowand. Maybe they start a rally and the Sox win the game anyway, it would have played out a bit differently. The play was in the 5th inning, not the bottom of the 9th.

 

El Duque was a veteran with all kinds of big game playoff experience with the Yankees who stepped up when needed. It's not unheard of for a player to step up in a position like that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

If the error doesn't happen, then they are down 4-2 in the 6th inning, but the inning starts off Iguchi/Dye/PK, instead of PK/Everett/Rowand. Maybe they start a rally and the Sox win the game anyway, it would have played out a bit differently. The play was in the 5th inning, not the bottom of the 9th.

 

El Duque was a veteran with all kinds of big game playoff experience with the Yankees who stepped up when needed. It's not unheard of for a player to step up in a position like that.

Considering the Sox didn't score another run after the Iguchi homer, odds are they would have lost the game. As for El Duque, KW had to be talked into even having him on the postseason roster, and he could have pitched well and a couple of runs could have scored in that situation.

[ptatc]

Isn't part of being a parent knowing what your child is capable of? For some, Bs are dissappointments, and could show a lack of effort and/or concentration. For some other kids, getting B's is actually quite an accomplishment. Not everyone's intellect is equal. I think looking at the Sox, we have been looking for As and B pluses but most of the time get Bs or B minuses or Cs. You are correct, whether the Sox win 100 or lose 100, its not really going to change anyone's life too much, but as fans which is short for fanatics, winning is important or we probably wouldn't be paying attention or posting on message boards. KW and Ozzie need more As. They have been given the means to accomplish it, and don't get it done too often.

 

This is true. If the child has an established record of grades, there is no reason not to expect it to continue. Whether that record is As, Bs or Cs. Part of it is also expectations. You can instill in the children what they need to do and see how they perform when they work hard.

 

If you truly think they have been given the means to accomplish it then you need to assign the cause. Was the team built well (KW), are they put in a good postion to maximize the winning (Ozzie) or are the players underperforming. To me it's alomost always the players underperforming. Neither KW nor Ozzie can do much with Dunn or Rios. Dunn has shown to be consistent except this year, Rios is inconsistent. One was a good pickup for KW one wasn't. I think both KW and Ozzie do a good job. Maybe not the best but good. Given the history of how JR likes to hire inexperienced management, I'm just not willing to pull the trigger on either too quickly. There are alot worse out there.

 

[ptatc]

At least you are not one of those parents who goes to the teacher to b**** when their precious youngster gets a B.

No wonder anybody with a brain refuses to be a teacher with overzealous parents of today.

I still think a B can be a decent grade. I'd give anything for the Sox to deserve a B right now.

 

I still think our team should be quicker with the trigger - fire Ozzie and KW now!

Our team has totally underacheved with this payroll.

Hudson kicking our ass tonight is another huge embarrassment since we gave him away.

 

Heck no. Just like with everything else, you need to deal with it. If there are problems you need to ask and find out what needs to be done and do it. I teach the kids and my students that there is no reason not to ask. If you don't ask, then it is your own fault.

 

[LittleHurt05]

Considering the Sox didn't score another run after the Iguchi homer, odds are they would have lost the game. As for El Duque, KW had to be talked into even having him on the postseason roster, and he could have pitched well and a couple of runs could have scored in that situation.

 

They didn't score a run, but they also had the lead so they didn't need to. Maybe if they were trailing, they would have been more agressive and they would have scored more runs. How do you know they wouldn't? What if?

 

But KW did keep him on the roster and Ozzie trusted him in that situation and he came through. He didn't pitch well during the season as a starter, but in a couple relief appearances he was scoreless, just like in Game 3.

 

Sorry that you are disappointed the Sox won the Boston series, you obviously believe they weren't deserving.