no faith and no patience in this organization

[Dick Allen]

They didn't score a run, but they also had the lead so they didn't need to. Maybe if they were trailing, they would have been more agressive and they would have scored more runs. How do you know they wouldn't? What if?

 

But KW did keep him on the roster and Ozzie trusted him in that situation and he came through. He didn't pitch well during the season as a starter, but in a couple relief appearances he was scoreless, just like in Game 3.

 

Sorry that you are disappointed the Sox won the Boston series, you obviously believe they weren't deserving.

Actually, probably no one was more thrilled the correct color of Sox won that series than me. Its too bad winning a WS clouds your judgement about the job performance of KW and OG since. The team still tries to sell a championship tradition, but they still have only won one the past 94 years. Its also the only time they have won a postseason series in 94 years. All the momentum they had in turning Chicago into a White Sox town has fallen by the wayside. There used to be a waiting list for season tickets. Now season ticketholders of which I am one, can't give their tickets away. Just keep one thing in mind, if its because of Ozzie and KW the team plays well and wins a WS, its only fair its because of Ozzie and KW guys like Pierre and Rios and Dunn have totally sucked. I think its something more in the middle, but their absolute refusal to be almost halfway through a season and really not do anything about the struggles this team has had, when the ad campaign is "all in" indicates to me the shelf life on an 11 year GM and an 8 year manager should be expiring pretty soon.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

Actually, probably no one was more thrilled the correct color of Sox won that series than me. Its too bad winning a WS clouds your judgement about the job performance of KW and OG since. The team still tries to sell a championship tradition, but they still have only won one the past 94 years. Its also the only time they have won a postseason series in 94 years. All the momentum they had in turning Chicago into a White Sox town has fallen by the wayside. There used to be a waiting list for season tickets. Now season ticketholders of which I am one, can't give their tickets away. Just keep one thing in mind, if its because of Ozzie and KW the team plays well and wins a WS, its only fair its because of Ozzie and KW guys like Pierre and Rios and Dunn have totally sucked. I think its something more in the middle, but their absolute refusal to be almost halfway through a season and really not do anything about the struggles this team has had, when the ad campaign is "all in" indicates to me the shelf life on an 11 year GM and an 8 year manager should be expiring pretty soon.

 

When did I ever say that KW & Ozzie should keep their job because of 2005? When did I ever say that they have done a good job in the past few years? Never. I agree with everything you say in this post.

 

I just disagree with you playing the "what if" game with 2005, acting like they never should have won because of one or two random lucky plays. That was a good team that was more than deserving to win the WS. KW made some great moves and Oz put his team in a position to win. That was then, & this is now, and their jobs are rightfully in question because of the team's recent performance. Their recent struggles shouldn't change the perception of what that team did in 2005 though.

[greg775]

Heck no. Just like with everything else, you need to deal with it. If there are problems you need to ask and find out what needs to be done and do it. I teach the kids and my students that there is no reason not to ask. If you don't ask, then it is your own fault.

 

You sound like a great teacher and dad.

But what do u do when the parents come calling when Johnny or Jane got a B?

I know a guy who taught one course at the college here and he was a tough grader and got flooded with calls from parents!

At the university level.

It was like, 'my daughter has all As and you gave her a B!'

 

[Dick Allen]

When did I ever say that KW & Ozzie should keep their job because of 2005? When did I ever say that they have done a good job in the past few years? Never. I agree with everything you say in this post.

 

I just disagree with you playing the "what if" game with 2005, acting like they never should have won because of one or two random lucky plays. That was a good team that was more than deserving to win the WS. KW made some great moves and Oz put his team in a position to win. That was then, & this is now, and their jobs are rightfully in question because of the team's recent performance. Their recent struggles shouldn't change the perception of what that team did in 2005 though.

When did I say they never should have won? I just pointed out the fine line between winning and losing. Was Bob Brenly a genius because the DBacks got to Mariano Rivera? Was John Hart not as good of a GM because Jose Mesa wet his pants? The thing is the only real argument anyone has as to what kind of a job KW and Ozzie do except for mediocre, is 2005. If that year didn't happen or they did lose in the playoffs, 99% of White Sox fans would want them gone right now. I still maintain the playoffs are a crapshoot. Get in them, hopefully with some season to spare so you can align your rotation, and give yourself a chance.

 

Both have huge egos and believe they are the reason the Sox won that year. I pointed this out years ago, but I used to go to Soxfest and go to the talks. When KW and Ozzie shared a stage it was hysterical when fans would go up to the microphone and thank one for the WS title. The other became so uncomfortable it almost seemed like they wanted to scream, "what about me?".

Edited June 18, 2011 by Dick Allen

[LittleHurt05]

When did I say they never should have won? I just pointed out the fine line between winning and losing. Was Bob Brenly a genius because the DBacks got to Mariano Rivera? Was John Hart not as good of a GM because Jose Mesa wet his pants? The thing is the only real argument anyone has as to what kind of a job KW and Ozzie do except for mediocre, is 2005. If that year didn't happen or they did lose in the playoffs, 99% of White Sox fans would want them gone right now. I still maintain the playoffs are a crapshoot. Get in them, hopefully with some season to spare so you can align your rotation, and give yourself a chance.

 

Both have huge egos and believe they are the reason the Sox won that year. I pointed this out years ago, but I used to go to Soxfest and go to the talks. When KW and Ozzie shared a stage it was hysterical when fans would go up to the microphone and thank one for the WS title. The other became so uncomfortable it almost seemed like they wanted to scream, "what about me?".

 

I definitely agree with the playoffs being a crapshoot & I think I better understand your point now. I think we actually are on similar pages about it.

 

I also think 2008 is what bought them this extra time, even though they collpased at the end of the year and won a coin toss to not play game 163 in the Metrodome.

 

[southsider2k5]

You sound like a great teacher and dad.

But what do u do when the parents come calling when Johnny or Jane got a B?

I know a guy who taught one course at the college here and he was a tough grader and got flooded with calls from parents!

At the university level.

It was like, 'my daughter has all As and you gave her a B!'

 

So in other words, they blamed blamed the hitting coach instead of the hitter.

[Balta1701]

So in other words, they blamed blamed the hitting coach instead of the hitter.

Maybe if we stripped the hitting coach of his collective bargaining rights...

[knightni]

Veeck new he could never win in the free agent game so he decided to put his money in development. This is where changes need to be made but I wouldn't be surprised this organization will be stuck with waisting money on hit and miss free agents because of their hit and miss drafting and development.

The MLB first year player draft began in 1965.

 

Prior to 1965, there was open free agency for high school and college players. So, the biggest boys got the best players - the Yankees, Dodgers, Giants, and Cards. Veeck, known for his frugality, couldn't really get the top young guys prior to '65, either.

 

Veeck owned the team the second time from 1976-1980.

 

Steve Trout (1976 #10) and Harold Baines (1977 #1) were good. No pick in 1978, Steve Buechele (1979 #9 - Did not sign) Rick Seilheimer (1979 compensation), and Cecil Espy (1980 #8) really weren't.

 

Ross Baumgarten (1977 20th rnd), and Britt Burns (1978 third rnd) are the only other non 1st rnd draft picks from 1976-1980 that even sniffed the roster as a member of the Sox.

 

I don't see how this is better than what KW has done.

[southsider2k5]

Maybe if we stripped the hitting coach of his collective bargaining rights...

 

dONE

[lostfan]

I don't really give a s*** about how bad the Sox sucked in the 70s and 80s. That point carries no traction with me. I mean, I'm 29 years old, I'm not THAT young. Might as well bring up the fact that it took us 88 years to win a championship while you're at it, and pretend that it makes things better.

 

Not that I think JR is a cheapass or anything, I mean at one time I used to, but since then he's pretty emphatically disproved that. But mediocrity is mediocrity, and saying "but they used to REALLY suck" does not make it not mediocrity.

Edited June 19, 2011 by lostfan

[kitekrazy]

The MLB first year player draft began in 1965.

 

Prior to 1965, there was open free agency for high school and college players. So, the biggest boys got the best players - the Yankees, Dodgers, Giants, and Cards. Veeck, known for his frugality, couldn't really get the top young guys prior to '65, either.

 

Veeck owned the team the second time from 1976-1980.

 

Steve Trout (1976 #10) and Harold Baines (1977 #1) were good. No pick in 1978, Steve Buechele (1979 #9 - Did not sign) Rick Seilheimer (1979 compensation), and Cecil Espy (1980 #8) really weren't.

 

Ross Baumgarten (1977 20th rnd), and Britt Burns (1978 third rnd) are the only other non 1st rnd draft picks from 1976-1980 that even sniffed the roster as a member of the Sox.

 

I don't see how this is better than what KW has done.

 

Try the next decade. Veeck set that up.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

Somebody make a list of reasons the White Sox have given us to have faith in/patience with them from 2006 until now. I've got improvements in and around the ballpark, increased payroll support from Uncle Jerry (which hasn't paid off), and.....that's about it. That's a pretty depressing five plus years.

Edited June 19, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[knightni]

Try the next decade. Veeck set that up.

 

Baines and Burns were drafted.

Hoyt was acquired by giving up Bucky Dent.

Dotson by giving up Brian Downing.

Kittle was a minor league free agent

Walker was a Rule 5 pickup

R. Law came from Espy who Veeck drafted

V. Law came from Baumgarten who Veeck drafted

 

 

Compare:

 

Beckham, Morel and Sale were drafted.

Quentin was acquired for Chris Carter.

Humber was a minor league free agent

A.J. was a waiver pickup

Santos was given to the Sox by SF

Ramirez was a cheap free agent

Thornton came from Borchard who KW drafted

Danks came from McCarthy who KW drafted

 

Talking 2005: Jenks as a waiver pickup, Dye as a cheap-ish free agent, Crede, Buehrle, Garland and Rowand developed. Iguchi as a cheap free agent, Pods acquired for a free agent-to be C. Lee, and Contreras acquired for a fading Loaiza.

 

Seems like KW hasn't done the worst job in the world.

 

Record 1976-1984 (1981-84 Veeck's "legacy"): One division Title, .487 winning %

 

Record 2000-2008 (An equal 9 years of KW): Three division Titles, One Championship, .534 winning %

[caulfield12]

Baines and Burns were drafted.

Hoyt was acquired by giving up Bucky Dent.

Dotson by giving up Brian Downing.

Kittle was a minor league free agent

Walker was a Rule 5 pickup

R. Law came from Espy who Veeck drafted

V. Law came from Baumgarten who Veeck drafted

 

 

Compare:

 

Beckham, Morel and Sale were drafted.

Quentin was acquired for Chris Carter.

Humber was a minor league free agent

A.J. was a waiver pickup

Santos was given to the Sox by SF

Ramirez was a cheap free agent

Thornton came from Borchard who KW drafted

Danks came from McCarthy who KW drafted

 

Talking 2005: Jenks as a waiver pickup, Dye as a cheap-ish free agent, Crede, Buehrle, Garland and Rowand developed. Iguchi as a cheap free agent, Pods acquired for a free agent-to be C. Lee, and Contreras acquired for a fading Loaiza.

 

Seems like KW hasn't done the worst job in the world.

 

Record 1976-1984 (1981-84 Veeck's "legacy"): One division Title, .487 winning %

 

Record 2000-2008 (An equal 9 years of KW): Three division Titles, One Championship, .534 winning %

 

 

Except KW wasn't the GM in 2000, Schueler was...his record looks a heckuva lot better if you cherrypick that 2000 season and add it into the mix.

 

That 1983 team also featured Fisk, Luzinski, Julio Cruz (who became an instant bust when JR then gave him a long-term deal), Floyd Bannister, Jerry Koosman with Lamp, Tidrow and the late Salome Barojas as the three key components of the bullpen. EDIT: Okay, I get it....wasn't reading thoroughly enough, all the players I listed were brought into the fold by JR and company after 1981.

 

 

If you want to start doing this, you could argue the 1990-1995 White Sox were more successful if you remember how good that 90 team was (Oakland was just an exceptional team at that time, nothing like them back at that time), 1993 and the cancelled 1994 team that was leading the division at the time of the strike...you could argue Himes was certainly better at drafting and developing players.

Edited June 19, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

If you want to start doing this, you could argue the 1990-1995 White Sox were more successful if you remember how good that 90 team was (Oakland was just an exceptional team at that time, nothing like them back at that time), 1993 and the cancelled 1994 team that was leading the division at the time of the strike...you could argue Himes was certainly better at drafting and developing players.

You could also argue that without one of the biggest top 10 pick wins in the past 3 decades, that 1990-1995 team would have gone no where. And you'd be right. There was a fairly important single pick that determined whether or not that team was succesful.

[Marty34]

Has any other Sox GM come close to squandering the resources KW has?

[Balta1701]

Has any other Sox GM come close to squandering the resources KW has?

If you read through this thread where people have talked about the organization's history...the answer appears to be "absolutely."

[ptatc]

You sound like a great teacher and dad.

But what do u do when the parents come calling when Johnny or Jane got a B?

I know a guy who taught one course at the college here and he was a tough grader and got flooded with calls from parents!

At the university level.

It was like, 'my daughter has all As and you gave her a B!'

 

I teach in a Doctoral level PT program. I have students who have never received a B even through their undergrad. One graduate still won't talk to me because I gave her the only B she received in her life. I haven't had parents call me. I have had many State Senator and Representatives call me to wonder why I student he recommended didn't get into the program.

[southsider2k5]

If you read through this thread where people have talked about the organization's history...the answer appears to be "absolutely."

 

As long as Hawk Harrelson is remembered, no one else will ever win the "Worst Sox GM Ever" game.

[maggsmaggs]

As long as Hawk Harrelson is remembered, no one else will ever win the "Worst Sox GM Ever" game.

Jose DeLeon did have one good year, haha.

[ptatc]

As long as Hawk Harrelson is remembered, no one else will ever win the "Worst Sox GM Ever" game.

 

Moving Fisk to the outfield was brilliant!

[greg775]

I teach in a Doctoral level PT program. I have students who have never received a B even through their undergrad. One graduate still won't talk to me because I gave her the only B she received in her life. I haven't had parents call me. I have had many State Senator and Representatives call me to wonder why I student he recommended didn't get into the program.

 

That is amazing she won't speak to you. I'm sure if she's that upset, you had discussions with her after the release of the grade. You think she would understand she deserved the B and deal with it. It's not why you gave her the B, but I would think that B will be a true life lesson for her as well.

Nobody's perfect even those who are told they are perfect by their parents from Day one until they leave the nest.

 

That's pretty crazy state officials have called you after the fact. Is that ethical? I would think if they raised hell about it after the fact, that'd be a no no.

Edited June 20, 2011 by greg775

[Allsox]

I wonder how many fans on this board were alive during the 70s and 80s when the White Sox won 1 division title in 20 years and usually finished in 3rd or 4th place with 70 something wins. Of the ones that were alive, I wonder if they can really get back in touch with what it felt like to be a fan of this team during that era, and put it in context.

 

Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins.

 

Yes, our payroll has increased. Yes, the expectations have been higher recently. Yes, there have been some depressing results at times, particularly in our own division. Is it because we are agonizingly close? I hope that's the conclusion. Because if it's not, I have news for you: this is not a s*** organization. This organization is one of the best in the American League, year in and year out. You'd never know it from reading this board, though.

 

It is astounding to me that there is absolutely no faith and no patience in this organization, this coach and this general manager. We've won 88+ games in 4 of the past six seasons. How many other teams have won 88+ games in four of the past six seasons? Four: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies. That's it. Not your precious Twins, not the big-spending, bumbling big-market Mets, not the Dodgers of lore, not the Cubs. 25 of 30 teams haven't done it. The White Sox have.

 

And yet, everyone is seemingly as frustrated as if they have waited 20 years for a divisional title. This team has won a World Series recently, under this management's watch, and yet you would never know it from the faithlessness around here. Really, what gives? Sure, you can blather on about Guillen's lack of in-game managerial skills while conveniently overlooking his other intangibles (his ability to deflect media heat from his players, his ability to keep his team motivated (even allegedly cantankerous ones like AJP and Jurassic Carl), his ability to be hands-off when nobody would dare notice it. You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here.

 

You need to look no further than 12 miles north if you want to know how difficult it is to win in this game consistently, even with a large payroll. Whether or not you believe in curses, that team has fielded young talent, experienced managers, veteran leaders. They can't win s*** to save their damned lives. I can cite 5 more examples of teams who spent it all seemingly correctly and can't win s*** anyway (The Mets come to mind, among others).

 

The 2011 White Sox may have been disappointing thus far, but I can't really see them playing much worse, and I can't pin this on the organization, nor have I lost faith or patience. I will not blame OG/KW for Adam Dunn and Alex Rios having the WORST slumps of their respective careers, for Peavy's unforeseen injury problems, for Beckham turning from can't miss to Crede-lite, for Juan Pierre forgetting how to field. I will not blame this organization for a host of veteran relievers blowing the f*** up. I will not blame this organization for John Danks' uncharacteristic, bewildering numbers.

 

Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization.

 

I really wish other people believed that too.

 

Pure awesomeness.

As someone who grew up a Sox fan in the 80's, this has been a Golden Era of White Sox baseball compared to the Dark Ages of the 80's. While it's frustrating to still see bad scouting in the minors, KW and Ozzie will always get a pass from me for 2005 and also from 2008 when the Sox punched out the damn Twins. The good heavily outweighs the bad from the current regime of the White Sox organization but in this age of instant gratification at your fingertips, people will always b**** about the little things more than the overall big picture.

[Disco72]

That is amazing she won't speak to you. I'm sure if she's that upset, you had discussions with her after the release of the grade. You think she would understand she deserved the B and deal with it. It's not why you gave her the B, but I would think that B will be a true life lesson for her as well.

Nobody's perfect even those who are told they are perfect by their parents from Day one until they leave the nest.

 

That's pretty crazy state officials have called you after the fact. Is that ethical? I would think if they raised hell about it after the fact, that'd be a no no.

 

Welcome to the land of teaching! You'd be shocked at the people who think they deserved one grade or another despite logical conversations and ample evidence to the contrary.

 

On the topic, I think it's pretty clear that KW needs another big "win" on his resume, and Ozzie probably needs to win the division this year. I'd still put Ozzie on the hotseat moreso than KW, but we'll see how JR feels about going "all-in" if this team fails to make the playoffs. If JPN is right, it's going to take a JR decision to make something happen (I assume JPN means that KW won't fire Ozzie).

[Balta1701]

(I assume JPN means that KW won't fire Ozzie).

I'm convinced that the correct word there is "Can't", not "won't".