no faith and no patience in this organization

[Milkman delivers]

Manuel Division Titles: 1

Guillen Division Titles: 2

 

Manuel Playoff Victories: 0

Guillen Playoff Victories: 12

 

Well, Manuel did only have 6 seasons compared to Guillen's 8. I'm saying that neither one of them is particularly good.

[fathom]

To recap what I said yesterday, what I find most striking is that a single 0-2 stretch, on the heels of a 22-13 stretch, can cause the doomsayers to completely rule this board.

 

Caulfield, you say the "fault lines" between Pierre and Viciedo have emerged this month. Setting aside Pierre's defense (which would be interesting to compare to Viciedo), what about his .286 avg, .365 obp, 4/1 SB/CS did you take exception to over the course of May? Certainly his aggregate stats have been bad, but what would you have had Ozzie do after a single bad month - pull him? After a .286/.365 May, he's going to pull him? Certainly he should be on a much shorter leash given his aggregate stats and regression to slump form maybe NOW, but characterizing this as a massive length of time that Viciedo should have been considered feels revisionist, especially given how people conveniently doubletalk regarding the effects of rushing other folks to the majors.

 

Yes, I meant commensurate.

 

You can't just put aside his defense, as that has single-handedly lost us three games this year. Kinda ironic how Lillibridge's defense has won us 2-3 games this year already. As for rushing Viciedo to the majors, I think that's ridiculous. He showed last year he belongs, he showed in ST he belongs, and he's putting up numbers in AAA that the rest of our pathetic farm system could only dream of. He's a major league caliber player who's playing in the minors, which Juan is the total opposite.

[ptatc]

Next time Kenny Williams wins a trade, it will be the first time since the Quentin one. He's on a very, very bad stretch right now and that's why so many people are frustrated with him. NO ONE blames Kenny for signing Dunn. It was a great move and a great deal for the Sox...it just hasn't panned out so far. You can't say that the trade Kenny has failed with were "great deals" at the time.

 

Can you say that he has put together good teams that have consistently been in contention for the playoffs? This is my criteria for a good GM. This of course is subjective.

 

Instead of looking at each individual transaction (trade, FA signing etc.) can he build overall good teams?

 

I really don't care overall how he builds the team as long as he can build a good team. does his success in getting Rameirez and possibly Viciedo (we still don't know how successful he will be in the majors), negate his "lack of winning trades."

 

It's fun to discuss the individual transactions but that isn't the important overall outcome. Winning is.

[fathom]

Can you say that he has put together good teams that have consistently been in contention for the playoffs? This is my criteria for a good GM. This of course is subjective.

 

Instead of looking at each individual transaction (trade, FA signing etc.) can he build overall good teams?

 

I really don't care overall how he builds the team as long as he can build a good team. does his success in getting Rameirez and possibly Viciedo (we still don't know how successful he will be in the majors), negate his "lack of winning trades."

 

It's fun to discuss the individual transactions but that isn't the important overall outcome. Winning is.

 

He's put together good, but not close to great teams. With our increased payroll since 2005, I would think that more GMs than not would be able to get us into the playoffs more than once in the next 5 years. I think a big reason for the frustration with KW is how bleak the future looks for this organization due to the poor trades, awful farm system, and bloated contracts. If we had a lot of money coming off the books this year with the current core we have and a solid farm system, I doubt people would be calling for KW's head as much.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Can you say that he has put together good teams that have consistently been in contention for the playoffs? This is my criteria for a good GM. This of course is subjective.

 

Instead of looking at each individual transaction (trade, FA signing etc.) can he build overall good teams?

 

I really don't care overall how he builds the team as long as he can build a good team. does his success in getting Rameirez and possibly Viciedo (we still don't know how successful he will be in the majors), negate his "lack of winning trades."

 

It's fun to discuss the individual transactions but that isn't the important overall outcome. Winning is.

 

Except we're not winning. I don't look at 84 wins and no playoffs as "winning." Your ass is sitting at home in October just like the Pirates and Royals who may have won 65 games. It's all the same to me.

[Disco72]

Hibbard - I appreciate your post and the sentiments behind it. For a long time, I've been in agreement with you. The 70s and 80s were so bad...so many years with no hope of winning, that I've enjoying that every Spring Training recently, the Sox have had a legitimate chance to win. However, the rules of the game have changed. Baseball economics now give the Sox a decided advantage within the division, and the increase in payroll shows that the Sox can spend more than anyone else.

 

Sadly, the ALC winners have averaged 92 wins since 1996. The Sox are usually just good enough to finish in second.

 

Exactly - with a higher payroll in a medicore division, there just haven't been enough division winners.

 

So I just decided to go back and check the winning percentages for Ozzie Guillen and Jerry Manuel.

 

.514 (which equals about 83 wins a year)

 

.525 (which equals about 85 wins a year)

 

Not a big difference.

 

Larry Himes was fired because JR thought he couldn't get the Sox to "Point C." Manual was fired because his teams were always above average but never consistent winners. Milkman shows that Ozzie, aside from 2005, hasn't been any better than Manual.

 

When the Sox won in 2000, then fell short the next couple of years, it was frustrating. KW made a change (Manual to Ozzie). Now, the Sox are once again falling just short most years. Its incredibly tiresome. I like Ozzie, but its time for a change - for someone that can get the Sox back to "Point C."

 

 

[ptatc]

He's put together good, but not close to great teams. With our increased payroll since 2005, I would think that more GMs than not would be able to get us into the playoffs more than once in the next 5 years. I think a big reason for the frustration with KW is how bleak the future looks for this organization due to the poor trades, awful farm system, and bloated contracts. If we had a lot of money coming off the books this year with the current core we have and a solid farm system, I doubt people would be calling for KW's head as much.

 

i agree with everything here except the future part. KW always seems to find good players somewhere. The only bloated contract I see is Peavy's and that's only because he always seems to be injured. Rios has been good/bad every other year so you can include that but that's about it.

[Soxfest]

Where is Ribbie & Rhubarb when you need them they should double suplex Southpaw...........that would be more offense than most Sox home games.

[ptatc]

Except we're not winning. I don't look at 84 wins and no playoffs as "winning." Your ass is sitting at home in October just like the Pirates and Royals who may have won 65 games. It's all the same to me.

 

that's fine if you gauge the entire season by playoffs only. I look at winning games over the long run. Since KW has been in charge, I think the average season total wins is 86 or so. I think that is pretty good not great but good.

[Rowand44]

I just really don't give a f*** about the 70's or 80's. Minus 05(and yes that counts for a lot but it doesn't give you a life time pass) this organization under Kenny and Ozzie has underachieved, it's that simple. The 70's and 80's don't mean a damn thing.

[Jordan4life_2007]

that's fine if you gauge the entire season by playoffs only. I look at winning games over the long run. Since KW has been in charge, I think the average season total wins is 86 or so. I think that is pretty good not great but good.

 

You're the type of person people would love to work for. You want results. But not maximum results. Long as you kinda just get by. That's not a terrible thing. Nobody would want to work for me. I demand maximum results. Just getting by doesn't cut it for me. That's kinda why I am the way I am. I have a job that demands the maximum.

[Greg Hibbard]

I just really don't give a f*** about the 70's or 80's. Minus 05(and yes that counts for a lot but it doesn't give you a life time pass) this organization under Kenny and Ozzie has underachieved, it's that simple. The 70's and 80's don't mean a damn thing.

 

04 was underachieving? 08?

[Rowand44]

04 was underachieving? 08?

The great 83 win season of 04? With the division we're in and the money our management has at its disposal, winning 2 whole division titles in this time frame is a massive failure. I used to be a huge KW fan and I certainly don't hate him even now but if we fail to once again make the playoffs and continue to make horrendous roster decisions then it's time to blow this thing up.

[ptatc]

You're the type of person people would love to work for. You want results. But not maximum results. Long as you kinda just get by. That's not a terrible thing. Nobody would want to work for me. I demand maximum results. Just getting by doesn't cut it for me. That's kinda why I am the way I am. I have a job that demands the maximum.

 

I think this maybe one of our differences as well. Baseball is a past time and for fun. I treat it a whole lot different than life. I expect a whole lot more from my kids (B's are a disappointment for grades) and from my students in the classroom as well as patients in the clinic. Baseball is a diversion from life and for fun.

[Rowand44]

I think this maybe one of our differences as well. Baseball is a past time and for fun. I treat it a whole lot different than life. I expect a whole lot more from my kids (B's are a disappointment for grades) and from my students in the classroom as well as patients in the clinic. Baseball is a diversion from life and for fun.

Ouch.

[ptatc]

Hibbard - I appreciate your post and the sentiments behind it. For a long time, I've been in agreement with you. The 70s and 80s were so bad...so many years with no hope of winning, that I've enjoying that every Spring Training recently, the Sox have had a legitimate chance to win. However, the rules of the game have changed. Baseball economics now give the Sox a decided advantage within the division, and the increase in payroll shows that the Sox can spend more than anyone else.

 

 

 

Exactly - with a higher payroll in a medicore division, there just haven't been enough division winners.

 

 

 

Larry Himes was fired because JR thought he couldn't get the Sox to "Point C." Manual was fired because his teams were always above average but never consistent winners. Milkman shows that Ozzie, aside from 2005, hasn't been any better than Manual.

 

When the Sox won in 2000, then fell short the next couple of years, it was frustrating. KW made a change (Manual to Ozzie). Now, the Sox are once again falling just short most years. Its incredibly tiresome. I like Ozzie, but its time for a change - for someone that can get the Sox back to "Point C."

 

By this philosophy, do they get extra credit for winning a world series with a low payroll? If payroll is a dependent variable in the equation than there should be more credit early in the tenure of KW and Ozzie.

 

[Greg Hibbard]

The great 83 win season of 04? With the division we're in and the money our management has at its disposal, winning 2 whole division titles in this time frame is a massive failure. I used to be a huge KW fan and I certainly don't hate him even now but if we fail to once again make the playoffs and continue to make horrendous roster decisions then it's time to blow this thing up.

 

Ok, so in 2004 you have a 65 million dollar payroll and season ending injuries to Ordonez and Thomas in June. And you expected them to do what, exactly?

[southsider2k5]

I think this maybe one of our differences as well. Baseball is a past time and for fun. I treat it a whole lot different than life. I expect a whole lot more from my kids (B's are a disappointment for grades) and from my students in the classroom as well as patients in the clinic. Baseball is a diversion from life and for fun.

 

Great post.

[jenksycat]

Manuel Division Titles: 1

Guillen Division Titles: 2

 

Manuel Playoff Victories: 0

Guillen Playoff Victories: 12

 

2005 doesn't count cause we just got lucky that year. Cmon, get with the times

[greg775]

I wonder how many fans on this board were alive during the 70s and 80s when the White Sox won 1 division title in 20 years and usually finished in 3rd or 4th place with 70 something wins. Of the ones that were alive, I wonder if they can really get back in touch with what it felt like to be a fan of this team during that era, and put it in context.

 

Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins.

 

Yes, our payroll has increased. Yes, the expectations have been higher recently. Yes, there have been some depressing results at times, particularly in our own division. Is it because we are agonizingly close? I hope that's the conclusion. Because if it's not, I have news for you: this is not a s*** organization. This organization is one of the best in the American League, year in and year out. You'd never know it from reading this board, though.

 

It is astounding to me that there is absolutely no faith and no patience in this organization, this coach and this general manager. We've won 88+ games in 4 of the past six seasons. How many other teams have won 88+ games in four of the past six seasons? Four: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies. That's it. Not your precious Twins, not the big-spending, bumbling big-market Mets, not the Dodgers of lore, not the Cubs. 25 of 30 teams haven't done it. The White Sox have.

 

And yet, everyone is seemingly as frustrated as if they have waited 20 years for a divisional title. This team has won a World Series recently, under this management's watch, and yet you would never know it from the faithlessness around here. Really, what gives? Sure, you can blather on about Guillen's lack of in-game managerial skills while conveniently overlooking his other intangibles (his ability to deflect media heat from his players, his ability to keep his team motivated (even allegedly cantankerous ones like AJP and Jurassic Carl), his ability to be hands-off when nobody would dare notice it. You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here.

 

You need to look no further than 12 miles north if you want to know how difficult it is to win in this game consistently, even with a large payroll. Whether or not you believe in curses, that team has fielded young talent, experienced managers, veteran leaders. They can't win s*** to save their damned lives. I can cite 5 more examples of teams who spent it all seemingly correctly and can't win s*** anyway (The Mets come to mind, among others).

 

The 2011 White Sox may have been disappointing thus far, but I can't really see them playing much worse, and I can't pin this on the organization, nor have I lost faith or patience. I will not blame OG/KW for Adam Dunn and Alex Rios having the WORST slumps of their respective careers, for Peavy's unforeseen injury problems, for Beckham turning from can't miss to Crede-lite, for Juan Pierre forgetting how to field. I will not blame this organization for a host of veteran relievers blowing the f*** up. I will not blame this organization for John Danks' uncharacteristic, bewildering numbers.

 

Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization.

 

I really wish other people believed that too.

 

I think your post is excellent.

I just think this season there's a lot of frustration for me because the team started so poorly after playing similarly miserable baseball after the all-star break last year. The team has pissed away so many games in heartwrenching fashion the past two seasons, probably starting with the Bobby failures, that it's been tough to see the big picture.

I know all teams get shutout and blow games and a lot of teams are dead if they are behind in the seventh inning, but it seems like the Sox lead the majors in all these bad categories.

But you make a good 'big picture' point that the organization has done OK.

Edited June 17, 2011 by greg775

[Disco72]

By this philosophy, do they get extra credit for winning a world series with a low payroll? If payroll is a dependent variable in the equation than there should be more credit early in the tenure of KW and Ozzie.

 

In a way, yes, they should get more credit...or perhaps less crap for not winning then. That doesn't change the fact that the Sox have a legit advantage over their division that they don't seem to be properly utilizing. $$$ does not = wins, but smart teams ought to be able to utilize their assets efficiently.

[kapzk]

Certainly wouldn't shoulder that much of the blame on KW. He did his job. If every1 had done what they were supposed to do we would have ran away with this division. But instead its been the opposite. Pierre, Rios and Dunn all have sucked big time this yr, Johnny Danks had a horrible start, and our bullpen blew us a handful of games. So i Don't blame Kenny on this one. Its the players fault, all Ozzie can do is just hope these guys can get out of it. Thats what upsets every1 on this board, which I see as pathetic. Ya Pierre absolutely blows, but I don't blame Ozzie sticking with him. If he gave Rios and Dunn that much time then y not Pierre.

 

Yes we have Viciedo waiting, but getting rid of Pierre or Teahen for that matter is not that easy.

I feel there is too much unwaranted blame on the management and coaching which is not deserved.

[greg775]

Ouch.

 

Yeah I hope you don't give the kiddies too much grief for getting a B.

A 'B' is not so bad.

[kjshoe04]

Yes we have Viciedo waiting, but getting rid of Pierre or Teahen for that matter is not that easy.

I feel there is too much unwaranted blame on the management and coaching which is not deserved.

How hard is it to get rid of Pierre? You tell him to pack up his s*** and have security escort him out.

[Real]

Nice, a Sox apologist

 

who f***ing cares how good this team was during the 70's and 80's?

 

you can have your 'perspective', i want my $110-$120 million dollar payroll team in the f***ing playoffs

Edited June 17, 2011 by Real