Guys that are becoming legit prospects

[oldsox]

Aaron Miles and Jaime Carroll probably profiled like Kuhn is now, and they have turned out to be solid major league players who help teams win ball games. Who's to say our guy Kuhn doesn't have that kind of potential. Plus, he hits.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Aaron Miles and Jaime Carroll probably profiled like Kuhn is now, and they have turned out to be solid major league players who help teams win ball games. Who's to say our guy Kuhn doesn't have that kind of potential. Plus, he hits.

 

I like the Miles comp.

[JPN366]

I like the Miles comp.

 

I think he could be better than those two, more of an everyday guy than a roler player.

[hawkubes]

When you have a WHIP higher than your ERA. You are either doing something really good, really bad, or a combination. His statline is an enigma.

It can be done. See David Robertson, getting the job done for the yankees this year.

 

G GS W L SV BS HLD CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB K ERA WHIP BAA

32 0 1 0 0 2 13 0 0 29.1 21 5 4 0 20 47 1.23 1.40 .193

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

It can be done. See David Robertson, getting the job done for the yankees this year.

 

G GS W L SV BS HLD CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB K ERA WHIP BAA

32 0 1 0 0 2 13 0 0 29.1 21 5 4 0 20 47 1.23 1.40 .193

 

Right, that's what I'm saying. You either have a very good ERA (Like Robertson), a really bad WHIP, or a combination (like Lindsay).

[caulfield12]

So what are Kuhn's other "plus" tools besides hitting?

 

It seems he's got decent speed, but maybe a step down from Lillibridge/Getz and certainly Chone Figgins in his prime.

 

Figgins was really an igniter and game-changer at the top of the line-up....

 

What is the reason that he's never even profiled in the Top 30 before this season?

 

If he was to have ONE best position, what would it be? Does he have to be moved all over the diamond...ala Jose Oquendo...or is he the type of player who could be a regular at one position?

 

Looking at the White Sox down the line...we're still not certain about 3B, 2B and LF (although odds are it will be Viciedo barring a trade). I'm guessing he can't catch, which is what we really need!

 

What is his arm strength and range at SS and 2B? Does he go better to his left or right? Can he throw from deep short flat-footed or jumping?

 

How would you compare him to Lillibridge, Pablo Ozuna or Willie Harris?

Edited June 23, 2011 by caulfield12

[Marty34]

Rough math on Brandon Short in May/June shows a line of .333/.409/..515. Only 23, I think he's going to be an everyday CF'er one day.

[JPN366]

1. So what are Kuhn's other "plus" tools besides hitting?

It seems he's got decent speed, but maybe a step down from Lillibridge/Getz and certainly Chone Figgins in his prime.

 

Figgins was really an igniter and game-changer at the top of the line-up....

 

2. What is the reason that he's never even profiled in the Top 30 before this season?

 

3. If he was to have ONE best position, what would it be? Does he have to be moved all over the diamond...ala Jose Oquendo...or is he the type of player who could be a regular at one position?

 

Looking at the White Sox down the line...we're still not certain about 3B, 2B and LF (although odds are it will be Viciedo barring a trade). I'm guessing he can't catch, which is what we really need!

 

4. What is his arm strength and range at SS and 2B? Does he go better to his left or right? Can he throw from deep short flat-footed or jumping?

 

5. How would you compare him to Lillibridge, Pablo Ozuna or Willie Harris?

 

1. He's a solid defender.

 

2. Don't know why.

 

3. 2B

 

4. Good enough, he plays more at 3B than SS, so he has a good arm. Fine either way. Haven't seem him do that.

 

5. Better than Ozuna, better hitter for average than Lillibridge and Harris. More versatile than Harris.

Edited June 26, 2011 by JPN366

[The Sir]

Well that and 30+ stolen bases. Kuhn will never do that.

 

I don't follow prospects at all (I don't give a damn what someone does at Charlotte, it's worthless unless it shows up in Chicago), so I am totally ignorant. But having read this thread, I think Kuhn sounds a lot like Ryan Sweeney. No power, no speed, nothing spectacular in the field, but a good contact hitter. Am I close at all?

 

And as far as I'm concerned, a high BA is only worth anything if you use it to produce runs. Wade Boggs and Ichiro, they got lots of hits, but more importantly, they scored lots of runs. Ty Cobb, he got lots of hits and scored runs and drove them in. A guy like Rod Carew, who had 100 RBIs and 100 runs scored only once, I'm just not all that sure what his great average and high number of SBs are good for.

 

Speaking of which, the same goes for stolen bases. I don't care if a guy steals 70 bases if he only scores 80 runs. Juan Pierre, I know we all hate him now, but he used to get praised. And for what? The dude hit .327 and stole 46 bases in 2001, and with Larry Walker and Todd Helton behind him, only scored 108 times. People think that's some sort of excellent season, but I'd rather have the 1998 Ray Durham who hit .285 and stole 36 bases, and scored 126 times.

 

I'm just sort of baffled by all the love for BA and such. It's kind of pointless. We had a higher BA and hit total than the Nats today, but oddly I don't recall us winning. High BAs are nice because often they're tied to more run production, but if they're not, I don't see the worth in it. Ryan Sweeney hits .286 for his career, but his 162 game average is 71 runs scored and 59 RBIs? Blah.

[caulfield12]

I don't follow prospects at all (I don't give a damn what someone does at Charlotte, it's worthless unless it shows up in Chicago), so I am totally ignorant. But having read this thread, I think Kuhn sounds a lot like Ryan Sweeney. No power, no speed, nothing spectacular in the field, but a good contact hitter. Am I close at all?

 

And as far as I'm concerned, a high BA is only worth anything if you use it to produce runs. Wade Boggs and Ichiro, they got lots of hits, but more importantly, they scored lots of runs. Ty Cobb, he got lots of hits and scored runs and drove them in. A guy like Rod Carew, who had 100 RBIs and 100 runs scored only once, I'm just not all that sure what his great average and high number of SBs are good for.

 

Speaking of which, the same goes for stolen bases. I don't care if a guy steals 70 bases if he only scores 80 runs. Juan Pierre, I know we all hate him now, but he used to get praised. And for what? The dude hit .327 and stole 46 bases in 2001, and with Larry Walker and Todd Helton behind him, only scored 108 times. People think that's some sort of excellent season, but I'd rather have the 1998 Ray Durham who hit .285 and stole 36 bases, and scored 126 times.

 

I'm just sort of baffled by all the love for BA and such. It's kind of pointless. We had a higher BA and hit total than the Nats today, but oddly I don't recall us winning. High BAs are nice because often they're tied to more run production, but if they're not, I don't see the worth in it. Ryan Sweeney hits .286 for his career, but his 162 game average is 71 runs scored and 59 RBIs? Blah.

 

 

You can deal with a Ryan Sweeney and his 700-750 OPS if he's playing 2B.

 

Where you can't live with it is at a corner outfield spot...or in CF, where he's mostly an average defender with the exception of having a stronger arm than most.

[Balta1701]

You can deal with a Ryan Sweeney and his 700-750 OPS if he's playing 2B.

 

Where you can't live with it is at a corner outfield spot...or in CF, where he's mostly an average defender with the exception of having a stronger arm than most.

In today's MLB, you can deal with that production almost anywhere except 1b, if he's adequate on defense and you have a couple other guys who are above average with the bats.

[The Sir]

In today's MLB, you can deal with that production almost anywhere except 1b, if he's adequate on defense and you have a couple other guys who are above average with the bats.

 

I don't see why a guy with that sort of production should be anything more than a placeholder. Sweeney really brings nothing to the table. He might be an acceptable placeholder for now, but I'd say Billy Beane is off his rocker if, at least in the back of his mind, he wasn't thinking about a replacement (perhaps a bad example, given Beane's famous Moneyball philosophy).

[Balta1701]

I don't see why a guy with that sort of production should be anything more than a placeholder. Sweeney really brings nothing to the table. He might be an acceptable placeholder for now, but I'd say Billy Beane is off his rocker if, at least in the back of his mind, he wasn't thinking about a replacement (perhaps a bad example, given Beane's famous Moneyball philosophy).

Of course you're always thinking about a replacement, but you're not going to overpay for it. There is nothing wrong with adequate production from an OF spot as long as you make up for it somewhere else.

 

Beane's biggest offensive problem to me is 1b, with a 2nd spot at DH. He needs more power out of his 1b position.

 

Edit: Give you some more details here. Right now, in the American League, the average OPS for a LF is .675. It's .715 in baseball overall. Nearly half the teams in MLB have sub .700 OPS's out of their LF spot. In RF, the situation is a little better, .774 OPS overall, but still 9 teams have sub .700 OPS's from their RF spot. This is post-steroids-era baseball...you can't be used to .850 OPS's out of every position any more.

 

Also, worth noting, the .581 OPS the White Sox have from their LF spot is the worst in baseball. Oakland has gotten a .656 OPS from it's RF spot...the .713 OPS that Sweeney has put up would be a significant improvement if he was only playing RF.

[caulfield12]

Of course you're always thinking about a replacement, but you're not going to overpay for it. There is nothing wrong with adequate production from an OF spot as long as you make up for it somewhere else.

 

Beane's biggest offensive problem to me is 1b, with a 2nd spot at DH. He needs more power out of his 1b position.

 

Edit: Give you some more details here. Right now, in the American League, the average OPS for a LF is .675. It's .715 in baseball overall. Nearly half the teams in MLB have sub .700 OPS's out of their LF spot. In RF, the situation is a little better, .774 OPS overall, but still 9 teams have sub .700 OPS's from their RF spot. This is post-steroids-era baseball...you can't be used to .850 OPS's out of every position any more.

 

Also, worth noting, the .581 OPS the White Sox have from their LF spot is the worst in baseball. Oakland has gotten a .656 OPS from it's RF spot...the .713 OPS that Sweeney has put up would be a significant improvement if he was only playing RF.

 

 

Hence the moves for the veterans in Crisp, Willingham and DeJesus.

 

Not that it has done them much good.

 

 

[danman31]

I don't follow prospects at all (I don't give a damn what someone does at Charlotte, it's worthless unless it shows up in Chicago), so I am totally ignorant. But having read this thread, I think Kuhn sounds a lot like Ryan Sweeney. No power, no speed, nothing spectacular in the field, but a good contact hitter. Am I close at all?

 

And as far as I'm concerned, a high BA is only worth anything if you use it to produce runs. Wade Boggs and Ichiro, they got lots of hits, but more importantly, they scored lots of runs. Ty Cobb, he got lots of hits and scored runs and drove them in. A guy like Rod Carew, who had 100 RBIs and 100 runs scored only once, I'm just not all that sure what his great average and high number of SBs are good for.

 

Speaking of which, the same goes for stolen bases. I don't care if a guy steals 70 bases if he only scores 80 runs. Juan Pierre, I know we all hate him now, but he used to get praised. And for what? The dude hit .327 and stole 46 bases in 2001, and with Larry Walker and Todd Helton behind him, only scored 108 times. People think that's some sort of excellent season, but I'd rather have the 1998 Ray Durham who hit .285 and stole 36 bases, and scored 126 times.

 

I'm just sort of baffled by all the love for BA and such. It's kind of pointless. We had a higher BA and hit total than the Nats today, but oddly I don't recall us winning. High BAs are nice because often they're tied to more run production, but if they're not, I don't see the worth in it. Ryan Sweeney hits .286 for his career, but his 162 game average is 71 runs scored and 59 RBIs? Blah.

The problem is all you can do as a leadoff hitter is get on base and steal bases. Scoring runs isn't your responsibility. It's the responsibility of the people behind you to drive you in. Maybe you shouldn't be praising Larry Walker and Todd Helton behind him.

[JPN366]

The problem is all you can do as a leadoff hitter is get on base and steal bases. Scoring runs isn't your responsibility. It's the responsibility of the people behind you to drive you in. Maybe you shouldn't be praising Larry Walker and Todd Helton behind him.

 

And that's what Kuhn does. He gets on base. And, with two .300 hitters behind him, he hasn't had to steal a lot of bases. The Barons offense has thrived with him leading off this year and last.

[The Sir]

The problem is all you can do as a leadoff hitter is get on base and steal bases. Scoring runs isn't your responsibility. It's the responsibility of the people behind you to drive you in. Maybe you shouldn't be praising Larry Walker and Todd Helton behind him.

 

I could buy this, except that duo drove in something like 280 runs. I can't blame Juan's relatively low runs total on them.

[danman31]

I could buy this, except that duo drove in something like 280 runs. I can't blame Juan's relatively low runs total on them.

I'm not saying you should. I'm saying you certainly can't blame it on Juan.

[JPN366]

I don't understand why people want to doubt Tyler Kuhn.

[GoodAsGould]

I don't understand why people want to doubt Tyler Kuhn.

 

Im really high on Kuhn too, but I was also a big fan of Getz and that didn't end up too great.....I'm hoping Kuhn gets a promotion soon though, don't think there is much left for him to do at AA.

[maggsmaggs]

I don't understand why people want to doubt Tyler Kuhn.

It's not that we want to doubt Kuhn, it's that we have to doubt Kuhn. I think everyone here would love to see Kuhn succeed because he is the little engine that could. But unfortunately, his numbers right now most likely belie his actual talents. The two prior years, he was pretty mediocre in the minor leagues. And he is a guy whose value is completely tied into his batting average, which is streaky. He doesn't walk a great rate. Doesn't have a lot of pop. Doesn't steal bases at a great rate. Doesn't have a true position. I mean there is a lot to doubt about his game. I don't know what his BABIP is this year, but that number is gonna be ridiculously (and unsustainably) high.

 

But that's not to say he is untalented because he was productive hitter in college, and has repeated that in the minor leagues somewhat. I just think we are looking at the infield version of Brent Lillibridge. And that has terrific value, but it's hard for me to see Kuhn as an everyday, starting Major League baseball player.

Edited June 28, 2011 by maggsmaggs

[Ozzie Ball]

I don't understand why people want to doubt Tyler Kuhn.

His numbers are essentially the same as last years when nobody was talking about him, but he just happens to be riding an unsustainably high BABIP.

[SoxAce]

I don't understand why people want to doubt Tyler Kuhn.

 

I remember you saying the same thing about C.J. Retherford... and David Cook.

[Balta1701]

I remember you saying the same thing about C.J. Retherford... and David Cook.

These guys who pile up the singles have their roles...they just need to be able to do it at the big league level. CJ busted before he ever got that high. Can you give me a reason other than "They're in the white sox organization" why one should expect that Kuhn will stop being a .280+ hitter as he moves up?

 

(note that I said a .280-ish hitter, which is where he was before this year and with the .335-ish babip that he put up his first 2 years in the minors0.

[Balta1701]

His numbers are essentially the same as last years when nobody was talking about him, but he just happens to be riding an unsustainably high BABIP.

One other thing though...he's also dropped in a bunch more extra base hits this year than he has in previous years. Almost the same number of extra base hits he had in 1.5 times as many at bats last year.