maggsmaggs Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) Okay, let me preface this topic by saying I don't actually think he should be in the HOF, I think he falls into that just-short category. But after looking at his numbers a little closer, he certainly needs to be in the discussion. And you really never hear his name associated with the HOF, but if people are clamoring for Johnny Damon to be in the Hall of Fame (which I have heard on ESPN recently). Robin certainly deserves to be in that conversation, too. Take a look at these statistics: WAR (rank among ML 3rd basemen) 1991: 4th 1992: 2nd 1993: 2nd 1994: 5th 1995: 2nd 1996: 4th 1997: Injured all year (only played 56 games) 1998: 4th 1999: 1st (first season with Mets) -- after 1999, his numbers are up and down. These rankings are with guys like Sheffield and Thome at third base when really those guys were poor fielders. So Robin was arguably the best third baseman in baseball during the 1990s. Not only was he a terrific hitter, but he was the top fielder in his era at third base and never was associated with steroids. He ranks 21st all-time in WAR as a third baseman. He ranks third in 90-plus RBI seasons from a third baseman and 10th in slugging all-time as a third baseman. Fielding-wise, he is fourth all-time in Gold Gloves by a third baseman. If Johnny Damon and his 45.4 WAR is being mentioned as a HOF player, then Robin with his 61.2 WAR should be too. My premise is that the HOF should be based on position relatively and not on just total statistics. Obviously, his career statistics are not overly impressive, but when compared to others at his position, they become quite impressive. Thoughts? I was watching the College World Series just now and Robin is broadcasting, so it really just hit me to look up his career statistics. As a result, I was quite surprised by how prolific a career he had despite a horrific ankle/leg injury in 1997. I guess during his prime, I was too young to fully appreciate him. Edited June 19, 2011 by maggsmaggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lord chas Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 mr clutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Johnny Damon is clearly not a hall of fame player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 01:27 PM) Johnny Damon is clearly not a hall of fame player. I don't disagree at all. He has been named to two All-Star games, but my point is if people are saying Damon is a HOF-caliber player, then Ventura should be talked about just as much, if not more. And overall, Robin's numbers should put him in the conversation since he was one of the era's best third basemen. Edited June 19, 2011 by maggsmaggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) I don't disagree at all. He has been named to two All-Star games, but my point is if people are saying Damon is a HOF-caliber player, then Ventura should be talked about just as much, if not more. And my point is...if people are saying that about Johnny Damon...that makes them wrong. Similarly, if people are saying Robin Ventura is a hall of famer, that also makes them wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattZakrowski Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Third Base in general is kind of an awkward place HOF wise. The defensive difficulty of the position is underestimated so voters expect too much offensively. I'd say Ventura is definitely a fringe HOFer IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I loved robin, but he's no hall of famer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 2 time all-star, 6 gold gloves. He had a great career but I just don't see how he can be a Hall of Famer. He's south of 300 homers and 2000 hits even. One of my favorite players ever so he'll be a Hall of Famer to me, but not a Cooperstown Hall of Famer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Agree 100%, I loved robin even wore 23 on my unis but he ain't a hall oif famer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (JoshPR @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 06:20 PM) Agree 100%, I loved robin even wore 23 on my unis but he ain't a hall oif famer Hell, the team hasn't even retired his #. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 05:24 PM) Hell, the team hasn't even retired his #. And Jermaine Dye did a pretty good job with it getting the World Series MVP and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 QUOTE (WilliamTell @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 06:30 PM) And Jermaine Dye did a pretty good job with it getting the World Series MVP and all. Best # in the city. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I see the reasoning for the thread, but he's obviously not a hall of famer. He is the most deserving of anyone from the Sox during that time frame next to Thomas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I remember a few things about Robin. First, his terrible start -- can't remember the stat, but I think he was 0 for 20 something. I saw the hit that snapped it, a single up the middle that had eyes. After that he was fine. I can't remember the details of his beef with Mgr. Bevington, and he certainly wanted out of Chicago, which I never did understand. His last year with Sox was 1998, the year of the White Flag trade with Giants. There were rumors that Robin was also to be traded, but the media and fans were loudly against that. He stayed, then left via free agency. Lots of big home runs, and he has that college record for consecutive games with a hit. Not up to standard of Brooks and Schmidt for HOF consideration. I would expect Santo would go before Robin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 At the time of his retirement, I'm pretty sure he was third all time in grand slams. For a guy that wasn't really a power hitter, that just shows you how "clutch" he was. I use parentheses because I usually dislike that term, but Ventura is a guy that seriously was clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 When he joined Sox, Walt Hnirak (spelling??) was hitting coach, and he changed Robin's swing. I never was convinced this was called for -- Robin had such a great, natural swing. Top hand would come off all the time. I'm interested to see what some of you guys think about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 04:31 PM) Best # in the city. Ryne Sandberg and Devin Hester say hi! Plus the obvious, J.P. Bordeleau. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (oldsox @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 06:59 PM) I remember a few things about Robin. First, his terrible start -- can't remember the stat, but I think he was 0 for 20 something. I saw the hit that snapped it, a single up the middle that had eyes. After that he was fine. I can't remember the details of his beef with Mgr. Bevington, and he certainly wanted out of Chicago, which I never did understand. His last year with Sox was 1998, the year of the White Flag trade with Giants. There were rumors that Robin was also to be traded, but the media and fans were loudly against that. He stayed, then left via free agency. Lots of big home runs, and he has that college record for consecutive games with a hit. Not up to standard of Brooks and Schmidt for HOF consideration. I would expect Santo would go before Robin. 0 for 43 White flag deal was in 1997 Edited June 20, 2011 by JoshPR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 07:03 PM) Ryne Sandberg and Devin Hester say hi! Plus the obvious, J.P. Bordeleau. Shaun Gayle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I was Robins biggest fan growing up. His 23 was the first jersey I ever bought. I still have the thing. All of that being said, he isn't a Hall of Famer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 .305 BA 1532 R 2552 H 443 HR 1531 RBI 148 SB .938 OPS - 18 seasons .267 BA 1006 R 1885 H 294 HR 1182 RBI 24 SB .806 OPS - 16 seasons Player A is more likely a HOF than player B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattZakrowski Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (knightni @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 09:53 PM) .305 BA 1532 R 2552 H 443 HR 1531 RBI 148 SB .938 OPS - 18 seasons .267 BA 1006 R 1885 H 294 HR 1182 RBI 24 SB .806 OPS - 16 seasons Player A is more likely a HOF than player B. Position and quality of defense matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (MattZakrowski @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 08:55 PM) Position and quality of defense matter... A is definitely Chipper, but like I said in my post, I don't think Robin is actually a HOF, but he is much closer than people give him credit for. Edited June 20, 2011 by maggsmaggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (oldsox @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 04:55 PM) When he joined Sox, Walt Hnirak (spelling??) was hitting coach, and he changed Robin's swing. I never was convinced this was called for -- Robin had such a great, natural swing. Top hand would come off all the time. I'm interested to see what some of you guys think about that. Hriniak. I have no idea how he changed Robin but Robin had a nice career so can't argue with the results. Hriniak built his reputation with the Red Sox and Ted Williams criticized his methods saying it robbed hitters of power. Frank Thomas trusted Hriniak and always turned to him when he hit a funk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 10:00 PM) A is definitely Chipper, but like I said in my post, I don't think Robin is actually a HOF, but he is much closer than people give him credit for. Chipper is almost twice the player that Ventura was. 1 MVP 6 AS 210 errors at 3B 2 AS 6 GG 220 errors at 3B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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