Sox "trying to get a return on investment"

[Buehrlesque]

I think you've hit the nail right on the head here. He's Jerry Owens. He's Dewayne Wise. He's Pablo Ozuna and Timo Perez and Darin Erstad. He's got the blood of Rob Mackowiak coursing through his veins. Ozzie does stupid s*** all the time and Kenny just backs off or backs him up -- and BTW that's the real problem with that whole relationship, not that they fight, but that they just simply don't seem to complement each other's strengths or cover each other's weaknesses anymore.

You hit it on the head: they clash. KW wants Adam Dunns and Jim Thomes; Ozzie wants Juan Pierres and Mark Kotsays. It's not a productive working relationship anymore because they have such different visions.

[Real]

lol, two pages and still nobody has offered their opinion?

 

Teahen or Pierre in LF? I would MUCH rather have Teahen's poor defense and left handed pop in the lineup than Pierre's poor defense and NOTHING in the lineup

 

I know Teahen's power is subjective, but put simply, he can hit homers and extra base hits, Pierre can't.

 

Pierre can't even turn singles into doubles with SB, which makes him USELESS

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

lol, two pages and still nobody has offered their opinion?

 

Teahen or Pierre in LF? I would MUCH rather have Teahen's poor defense and left handed pop in the lineup than Pierre's poor defense and NOTHING in the lineup

 

I know Teahen's power is subjective, but put simply, he can hit homers and extra base hits, Pierre can't.

 

Pierre can't even turn singles into doubles with SB, which makes him USELESS

 

Yep. It's just so bad we are saying "Which player would hurt us the least in LF" when we have a kid flat out dominating AAA who plays the same position and can be an IMPACT PLAYER. Such a s***ty position to be in right now.

[whitesoxfan101]

Rongey was being a jackass.

 

As opposed to when he isn't being a jackass....which is when exactly?

 

Anyways, the "trying to get a return on investment" argument could not only apply to Pierre, but Adam Dunn as well. It's the only reason why I could see either of them playing at this point. I would almost throw Alex Rios in there too for that matter, although he's at least shown some signs of a pulse the last week and a half. Anybody else would just play Lillibridge every single day in the OF and call up Dayan. But not the White Sox, who crash and burn due in part to their own stubborn tendencies, and do so on a consistent basis. Everybody is going to get paid regardless, so you might as well play the best players. Maybe the White Sox should change their slogan to "All in....unless the better players make way less money".

Edited June 21, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[TheChrisSamsa]

Juan Pierre is making $5 million from the White Sox this year, of course on the MLB team. Dayan Viciedo is making $2.25 million from the White Sox this year, in AAA. Why aren't the Sox worried about getting a return on their investment on Viciedo? Paying someone over $2 million to play in triple A is equal, if not worse than letting Pierre rot in Left Field.

 

Even if the two were mutually exclusive, we'd have reason to question the organization on both events.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Juan Pierre is making $5 million from the White Sox this year, of course on the MLB team. Dayan Viciedo is making $2.25 million from the White Sox this year, in AAA. Why aren't the Sox worried about getting a return on their investment on Viciedo? Paying someone over $2 million to play in triple A is equal, if not worse than letting Pierre rot in Left Field.

 

Even if the two were mutually exclusive, we'd have reason to question the organization on both events.

 

I'm confused. Are the Sox paying JP $3 or $5 million?

[caulfield12]

I'm confused. Are the Sox paying JP $3 or $5 million?

 

 

$5 million this year (Dodgers are responsible for $3.5), $3 million in 2010 (Dodgers paid $7.5 million).

 

This gets back to the "investment of resources" argument.

 

 

We're already paying $3.5 million of Linebrink's $5.5 million contract....plus Teahen, plus Viciedo.

 

Being stubborn over $2.75 million when we spent a lot more than that on a washed-up Manny Ramirez....not sure what to say anymore about the "spin" coming out of White Sox Land.

 

In reality, this has nothing to do with money anymore. It's about Ozzie's will versus Kenny's, and who will blink first. Will KW give in and trade Viciedo or hold him back to build around with Ozzie out the door? While they're at it, they might as well just send Beckham down to the minors to play everyday and let Lillibridge, Vizquel, Teahen and Morel share at-bats.

 

Not that they'll ever get anything back for Teahen now, but hey, might as well use him if they're stuck paying him millions.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

$5 million this year (Dodgers are responsible for $3.5), $3 million in 2010 (Dodgers paid $7.5 million).

 

This gets back to the "investment of resources" argument.

 

 

We're already paying $3.5 million of Linebrink's $5.5 million contract....plus Teahen, plus Viciedo.

 

Being stubborn over $2.75 million when we spent a lot more than that on a washed-up Manny Ramirez....not sure what to say anymore about the "spin" coming out of White Sox Land.

 

In reality, this has nothing to do with money anymore. It's about Ozzie's will versus Kenny's, and who will blink first. Will KW give in and trade Viciedo or hold him back to build around with Ozzie out the door? While they're at it, they might as well just send Beckham down to the minors to play everyday and let Lillibridge, Vizquel, Teahen and Morel share at-bats.

 

Not that they'll ever get anything back for Teahen now, but hey, might as well use him if they're stuck paying him millions.

 

Wow. I thought it was $3 million. I can't imagine any team in the league having more salary vs production disasters as the White Sox do right now. Pierre, Rios, Teahen, Peavy, Dunn and AJ is making $6 million next year? Horrific.

[Chicago White Sox]

I'm honestly convinced that if we called up Viciedo today, he would have an +.900 OPS the rest of the way and would not be prone to massively-long slumps like half of these cowards. He's just a pure hitter and our team desperately needs one of those right now.

 

It's just so frustrating and inexcusable that he's not up right now. KW's job could come down to our finish this season, yet he and Ozzie are trying to get every single extra mileage out of a over-the-hill Juan Pierre. 99.9% of people agree that this simple change could have a huge impact on our offense. How can KW not see this? He can't honestly believe that Pierre has something left in the tank right? You can tell from watching him that Pierre has lost a step.

 

I've supported KW for years, but I'm feeling like it's time for a change. We need a new front office and a new coaching staff. The only guy I would try to keep is Cooper. Go after Dave Martinez and let him pick the rest of his coaching staff. As for GM, Rick Hahn is not an option IMO. I'd like to see Reinsdorf offer Andrew Friedman a boat-load of money to take over our organization. While I will not advocate rebuilding unless all hell breaks loose, I want a GM who's got some actual experience building a quality organization from the ground up. We need to start making changes to our philosophy towards player development. I'm not giving up on this year or next year anytime soon, but need to commit more resources to this area. In particular, something needs to be done about Latin America soon, because we are playing short-handed right now and it's killing us.

[caulfield12]

I'm honestly convinced that if we called up Viciedo today, he would have an +.900 OPS the rest of the way and would not be prone to massively-long slumps like half of these cowards. He's just a pure hitter and our team desperately needs one of those right now.

 

It's just so frustrating and inexcusable that he's not up right now. KW's job could come down to our finish this season, yet he and Ozzie are trying to get every single extra mileage out of a over-the-hill Juan Pierre. 99.9% of people agree that this simple change could have a huge impact on our offense. How can KW not see this? He can't honestly believe that Pierre has something left in the tank right? You can tell from watching him that Pierre has lost a step.

 

I've supported KW for years, but I'm feeling like it's time for a change. We need a new front office and a new coaching staff. The only guy I would try to keep is Cooper. Go after Dave Martinez and let him pick the rest of his coaching staff. As for GM, Rick Hahn is not an option IMO. I'd like to see Reinsdorf offer Andrew Friedman a boat-load of money to take over our organization. While I will not advocate rebuilding unless all hell breaks loose, I want a GM who's got some actual experience building a quality organization from the ground up. We need to start making changes to our philosophy towards player development. I'm not giving up on this year or next year anytime soon, but need to commit more resources to this area. In particular, something needs to be done about Latin America soon, because we are playing short-handed right now and it's killing us.

 

The only way we get Friedman is if we offer him and his father (Kenny) an ownership stake or the rights to buy shares....

 

Otherwise, you're going to have to use money to attract a candidate, because of the dim prospects in front of this organization minus an incredible run of trades and bad contracts turning around.

 

And even with Ramirez and Viciedo, you can't go 5-7 years without ANY top prospects from the Dominican, Mexico, Central America or Venezuela.

 

We had our moments with Takatsu and Iguchi...but that didn't lead to any more Korean or Japanese imports following in their footsteps.

 

 

[Balta1701]

You hit it on the head: they clash. KW wants Adam Dunns and Jim Thomes; Ozzie wants Juan Pierres and Mark Kotsays. It's not a productive working relationship anymore because they have such different visions.

There was a time when the fact that they clashed was a benefit because it wound up producing a more balanced, capable lineup, rather than the type of 2003-2004 lineup we saw where there were 4 monsters in the center surrounded by 5 weak parts with a depleted pitching staff.

 

For the last few years though, the small quick guy that Ozzie has wanted has not been MLB-worthy. That's the biggest problem...etiher KW isn't getting him guys who deserve to be on a baseball team or Ozzie is asking for guys who don't deserve to be.

[Balta1701]

I'm honestly convinced that if we called up Viciedo today, he would have an +.900 OPS the rest of the way and would not be prone to massively-long slumps like half of these cowards. He's just a pure hitter and our team desperately needs one of those right now.

If you watched DV last year, ther'es clearly going to be an adjustment period/slumps, no matter how much of a pure hitter he is, because pitchers will keep finding new ways to take advantage of his aggressiveness.

[Balta1701]

Wow. I thought it was $3 million. I can't imagine any team in the league having more salary vs production disasters as the White Sox do right now. Pierre, Rios, Teahen, Peavy, Dunn and AJ is making $6 million next year? Horrific.

Your imagination needs to look at our current opponent.

[Balta1701]

Juan Pierre is making $5 million from the White Sox this year, of course on the MLB team. Dayan Viciedo is making $2.25 million from the White Sox this year, in AAA. Why aren't the Sox worried about getting a return on their investment on Viciedo? Paying someone over $2 million to play in triple A is equal, if not worse than letting Pierre rot in Left Field.

 

Even if the two were mutually exclusive, we'd have reason to question the organization on both events.

Because if the White Sox hold Viciedo in the minor leagues longer, they can push back the start of his arbitration and free agency years.

 

For "Return on invesment" that's one way to get a win. Of course, it also costs the team a chance to get a playoff race, which is a very large return on investment.

[LittleHurt05]

Your imagination needs to look at our current opponent.

 

It's a close comparison. Their bad contracts are larger than the Sox, but at least they are still getting some production. Soriano is at least hitting homers, Z pitches every 5 days, even Fukudome is at least an average leadoff hitter vs. RHP. Then again, the Sox don't have a Bradley/Silva player who isn't even in the majors. Either way, there's a lot of money being wasted on both sides of town.

[caulfield12]

There was a time when the fact that they clashed was a benefit because it wound up producing a more balanced, capable lineup, rather than the type of 2003-2004 lineup we saw where there were 4 monsters in the center surrounded by 5 weak parts with a depleted pitching staff.

 

For the last few years though, the small quick guy that Ozzie has wanted has not been MLB-worthy. That's the biggest problem...etiher KW isn't getting him guys who deserve to be on a baseball team or Ozzie is asking for guys who don't deserve to be.

 

And those "weak" players weren't so bad...Rowand, Valentin, Uribe, Crede.

 

Nothing like Clayton/Johnson or AJ (although he's looking better now, but for most of the year?)/Rios/Beckham/Morel/Pierre.

 

Any of those four guys I named would be arguably the fourth best (certainly most dangerous in the eyes of opposing pitchers) hitter on this White Sox team.

 

If I recall, that was Juan's best offensive year where he was hitting around .400 near the end of May still.

Edited June 21, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

It's a close comparison. Their bad contracts are larger than the Sox, but at least they are still getting some production. Soriano is at least hitting homers, Z pitches every 5 days, even Fukudome is at least an average leadoff hitter vs. RHP. Then again, the Sox don't have a Bradley/Silva player who isn't even in the majors. Either way, there's a lot of money being wasted on both sides of town.

The other classic on the list is the Mets. Jason Bay is getting paid $16 million this year and has 2 HR.

[southsider2k5]

There was a time when the fact that they clashed was a benefit because it wound up producing a more balanced, capable lineup, rather than the type of 2003-2004 lineup we saw where there were 4 monsters in the center surrounded by 5 weak parts with a depleted pitching staff.

 

For the last few years though, the small quick guy that Ozzie has wanted has not been MLB-worthy. That's the biggest problem...etiher KW isn't getting him guys who deserve to be on a baseball team or Ozzie is asking for guys who don't deserve to be.

 

An interesting thought is looking at who we have drafted the last couple of years in Mitchell and now Walker. It finally looks like we are trying to bring Ozzie style players into the system.

[caulfield12]

An interesting thought is looking at who we have drafted the last couple of years in Mitchell and now Walker. It finally looks like we are trying to bring Ozzie style players into the system.

 

 

Mitchell is definitely a KW pick. Same with Thompson and Jordan Danks, to a lesser extent.

 

Walker has more of the Guillen/Pierre/Pods/Owens tendencies. His ceiling is pretty limited. Of course, they compared Alexei to the likes of Ramon Santiago, Pablo Ozuna and Omar Infante, so who knows.

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Mitchell is definitely a KW pick. Same with Thompson and Jordan Danks, to a lesser extent.

 

Walker has more of the Guillen/Pierre/Pods/Owens tendencies. His ceiling is pretty limited. Of course, they compared Alexei to the likes of Ramon Santiago, Pablo Ozuna and Omar Infante, so who knows.

 

I will give you credit. You managed to find by far the worst draft statement about Keenyn Walker.

[LittleHurt05]

The other classic on the list is the Mets. Jason Bay is getting paid $16 million this year and has 2 HR.

 

Let's not forgot the Angels. They belong on the list simply for trading for Vernon Wells. He will be making $9 million more per season than Alex Rios.

[Balta1701]

Let's not forgot the Angels. They belong on the list simply for trading for Vernon Wells. He will be making $9 million more per season than Alex Rios.

At some point in this thread the phrase "Worst free agent signing" was used I believe. If I tried adding in trades then someone would say "oh but we're just talking about Free Agent signings" so that the focus would remain solely on KW. That's a common game.

 

Add in trades and you add in guys like Dan Uggla.

[caulfield12]

I will give you credit. You managed to find by far the worst draft statement about Keenyn Walker.

 

 

I don't hate Walker. Like many, I've never even seen the dude play.

 

What I do despite is their "spinning" the draft of someone at #45 like "wow, we drafted a baseball player" and almost delegitimizing their pick of Mitchell in the prior year.

 

In my mind, you always take the high upside guys like Mitchell, Danks and Thompson and populate your farm system with them. It's a numbers game. Some of them will blossom, most will fail or fall to the wayside, stalled in their development.

 

Of course, none of us liked Ring/McCulloch/Broadway...but the idea of Walker or Beckham as "pure baseball players" and not just athletes playing baseball (Borchard, Fields, Anderson) is amusing. It's not like we have never developed an athletic outfielder, a lot of organizations would like to have Chris Young. He was very raw and nothing close to a finished product when we drafted him.

 

So I'll take 10-15 Mitchells or Youngs over 50 Kennyn Walkers and play those odds in Vegas that I end up with a couple of All-Stars and one once-in-a-generation superstar.

 

 

[Kyyle23]

Hanley was disagreeing with Rongey this morning on this "return on investment" idea. He said there is no return here, at this point you have to turn to your other investment in Viciedo

 

cant say I think otherwise

[southsider2k5]

Here you go...

 

http://www.southsidesox.com/2011/6/21/2234...ays-until-dayan

 

In about 11 or 12 days by my count, they'll have the freedom to promote Viciedo for the rest of the season without him eclipsing a full year of service time, thus delaying free agency by a year. As Larry noted, this is the difference the presence of Scott Boras makes.

 

Viciedo's agent used to be Jaime Torres. He represents Alexei Ramirez, and we saw how they were able to agree to a contract extension that allowed the Sox to buy a year of his free agency. Scott Boras does not advise his clients to follow that route -- Jerry Reinsdorf will point to Joe Crede as a chief example, so service time considerations become much more important in this case.