Konerko trade question

[Balta1701]

Giving Guillen a contract extension through 2012?

You can't trade Gullen this offseason if you didn't have him under contract.

[caulfield12]

You can't trade Gullen this offseason if you didn't have him under contract.

 

 

Just depends, if they can get Bobby Valentine without giving up a significant player, they might just do that.

 

Obviously, the big concern for the Marlins is selling season tickets in the offseason for the new stadium.

 

Some of it also depends on how Guillen finishes this season, too...in terms of increasing his desirability (to both sides), an AL Central championship would burnish his resume and put him back into spotlight again.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Just depends, if they can get Bobby Valentine without giving up a significant player, they might just do that.

 

Obviously, the big concern for the Marlins is selling season tickets in the offseason for the new stadium.

 

Some of it also depends on how Guillen finishes this season, too...in terms of increasing his desirability (to both sides), an AL Central championship would burnish his resume and put him back into spotlight again.

If Guillen wins the AL Central this year then he gets a contract extension here. And in that case, you're happy you added that 1 year extension...because otherwise Guillen would have a ton more negotiating leverage.

[elrockinMT]

That post was completely devoid of logic, no way around it.

 

 

Yours or mine? I would just appreciate it if you leave the personal slamming out of your opinionated posts. Thank you.

[Milkman delivers]

Yours or mine? I would just appreciate it if you leave the personal slamming out of your opinionated posts. Thank you.

 

Yours. And I didn't slam you in the least. I said your post was devoid of logic, not that you are.

[witesoxfan]

Pena over Jeff Gray? Haha.

 

I'm guessing you're referring to the ongoing "replace Pierre with Viciedo" movement?

 

Giving Guillen a contract extension through 2012?

 

I think it's quite obvious that it's the way Viciedo has been handled. Just have to hope that he does come up when the Sox gain an extra year of control because he is murdering the ball and could be a huge boon to this team down the stretch.

[harfman77]

The two players most likely to be dealt are Quentin and Danks. Both have good value now and you need to trade Quentin while things are clicking. Philly, SF, Sea and maybe even Pitt would have interest in Quetin. Danks would draw interest from Colorado, NYY, Washington and StL. Buerhle would also be tradable but with his $15M price tag for next season it could lessen the return you get.

 

In any trade made the Sox need to get back their future lead-off man so that they can let Pierre walk at the end of the season.

[SoxFan1]

Better question: What are PK's numbers since he was put on the SoxTalk banner?

[elrockinMT]

Yours. And I didn't slam you in the least. I said your post was devoid of logic, not that you are.

 

 

Let's just move on. Agreed? I hope we both prefer just to talk Sox baseball. Maybe not always agree

[Milkman delivers]

Let's just move on. Agreed? I hope we both prefer just to talk Sox baseball. Maybe not always agree

 

Okelly dokelly

[soxrwhite]

I have never been a fan of trading away your best players. I know obviously you have to give something in order to get something. Also, payroll is an issue. Bottom line though, you you need good players. Don't get rid of them. Keep it simple and keep your talent.

[The Sir]

Personally, I hate the idea of trading proven stars for unproven prospects. Konerko's got ten plus years (minus a few miserable years mixed in) of showing what he can do in the major leagues. But what do these guys you speak of, like Freeman, Minor and Montero have? Good scouting reports? Potential? I hate that word. I'm really just skeptical of prospects in general. Look at all the can't miss prospects we've had over the years: Rauch, Ring, Borchard, Malone, Honel, Anderson, etc. And so far, Beckham and Sale aren't exactly looking like All-Stars. So I think my mistrust of unproven talent is reasonable.

 

Also, how can anyone blame this team's failures so far on Kenny? He built a good team on paper, that's simply sucked on the field. As far as I'm concerned, blame for our current record lies with Ozzie first and foremost, and then trickles down to guys like Dunn, Pierre, Beckham etc. Kenny had nothing to do with this garbage.

 

Just my two cents, anyway.

[gatnom]

Personally, I hate the idea of trading proven stars for unproven prospects. Konerko's got ten plus years (minus a few miserable years mixed in) of showing what he can do in the major leagues. But what do these guys you speak of, like Freeman, Minor and Montero have? Good scouting reports? Potential? I hate that word. I'm really just skeptical of prospects in general. Look at all the can't miss prospects we've had over the years: Rauch, Ring, Borchard, Malone, Honel, Anderson, etc. And so far, Beckham and Sale aren't exactly looking like All-Stars. So I think my mistrust of unproven talent is reasonable.

 

Also, how can anyone blame this team's failures so far on Kenny? He built a good team on paper, that's simply sucked on the field. As far as I'm concerned, blame for our current record lies with Ozzie first and foremost, and then trickles down to guys like Dunn, Pierre, Beckham etc. Kenny had nothing to do with this garbage.

 

Just my two cents, anyway.

 

I don't put as much blame on KW as I do Ozzie for how the team has performed thus far, but to say he had nothing to do with it isn't true in my opinion. He is the one who won't do his job and make Ozzie not trot out the worst every day player in baseball (and JR has said that the GM should always have power to fire his manager, so I don't buy the whole he doesn't have to power to set Ozzie straight). He is the one who acquired the injured Jake Peavy and the underachieving Alex Rios. He also spent an extra $8 million on Jackson while Hudson looks every bit as good for 1/8 the cost (and we can't forget that Holmberg is a very legit prospect as well). He is the very reason they had to go "all in" to field a competitive team. If he had been a little bit more wise with his money, we wouldn't have to worry about how this team has to start winning or else it will start to bleed money, and, should they fail to take the division, the whole franchise would be set back years because of how bad he's let the farm system get.

 

I won't fault the Dunn signing, but KW has been far from perfect.

 

 

[The Sir]

I don't put as much blame on KW as I do Ozzie for how the team has performed thus far, but to say he had nothing to do with it isn't true in my opinion. He is the one who won't do his job and make Ozzie not trot out the worst every day player in baseball (and JR has said that the GM should always have power to fire his manager, so I don't buy the whole he doesn't have to power to set Ozzie straight). He is the one who acquired the injured Jake Peavy and the underachieving Alex Rios. He also spent an extra $8 million on Jackson while Hudson looks every bit as good for 1/8 the cost (and we can't forget that Holmberg is a very legit prospect as well). He is the very reason they had to go "all in" to field a competitive team. If he had been a little bit more wise with his money, we wouldn't have to worry about how this team has to start winning or else it will start to bleed money, and, should they fail to take the division, the whole franchise would be set back years because of how bad he's let the farm system get.

 

I won't fault the Dunn signing, but KW has been far from perfect.

 

Jake Peavy didn't reveal himself as a total china doll until after he came to our side. There was nothing in his history with the Padres to suggest that he was more fragile than...well, something that's really fragile. And the Alex Rios acquisition looked brilliant last year. It's not KW's fault the guy stunk to start this year. Jackson might have been a dumb call, but the jury's still out on what Hudson's going to amount to. Our scouts were never all that convinced, IIRC. And how about all the players he acquired that have really panned out for us? Floyd, Danks, Crain, Thornton, Humber, AJ, Alexei, Quentin...and that's just this year.

 

I guess you can blame him for not strong-arming Ozzie into benching Dunn, but I would say that's more Ozzie's fault than his. Ozzie needs to have some sense and bench someone who's struggling that bad. KW shouldn't have to intrude on Ozzie's job description and handle his business for him.

 

That being said, I will respect KW even more when he just fires Ozzie outright and hires someone who will do the job correctly.

[caulfield12]

Jake Peavy didn't reveal himself as a total china doll until after he came to our side. There was nothing in his history with the Padres to suggest that he was more fragile than...well, something that's really fragile. And the Alex Rios acquisition looked brilliant last year. It's not KW's fault the guy stunk to start this year. Jackson might have been a dumb call, but the jury's still out on what Hudson's going to amount to. Our scouts were never all that convinced, IIRC. And how about all the players he acquired that have really panned out for us? Floyd, Danks, Crain, Thornton, Humber, AJ, Alexei, Quentin...and that's just this year.

 

I guess you can blame him for not strong-arming Ozzie into benching Dunn, but I would say that's more Ozzie's fault than his. Ozzie needs to have some sense and bench someone who's struggling that bad. KW shouldn't have to intrude on Ozzie's job description and handle his business for him.

 

That being said, I will respect KW even more when he just fires Ozzie outright and hires someone who will do the job correctly.

 

 

According to Chris Rongey, no team in major league baseball would bench Adam Dunn. Since that seems to be the front office/institutionalized thinking on the subject, that he certainly won't break out of this by sitting, why doesn't KW force him to the DL with some flimsy reason and call up Viciedo?

 

On our current roster, who's a better candidate to replace Dunn? Lillibridge? Really? As an everyday DH? And that's a great recipe for the future when Lilly is overexposed at this position and then you have no choice but to eventually go back to Dunn?

 

Viciedo can't cover 2 positions, eventually he has to replace Pierre.

 

Ozzie benched Nick Swisher in 2008 and it worked, in a way, because we hung on to win the division. In another way, it was a disaster, because we were forced to dump Swisher's contract for nothing in return when he'd cost us three of our top prospects. So that's the potential cost....we bench Dunn and risk making him a drag on the roster for 2012, 2013 and 2014.

 

Certainly you can't think the trades of Swisher and Javy brought us back a very good return. And in the process, we lost one of the best young LH pitching prospects in baseball, arguably an even more valuable pitcher than Daniel Hudson.

 

What happens to GM's when every gamble they take turns out badly, even if it's "not their fault." Should you give credit to Ozzie for "nurturing" those players like Danks/Ramirez/Quentin/Thornton/Floyd/Santos/Viciedo/Humber along? Would they have done so well in an another organization? Humber's bounced around to something like 4 or 5 teams. Even the Twins. And yet he's found success with Cooper. And Cooper goes/stay with Ozzie, wherever he is...how many organizations would Santos successfully be closing for?

 

You have Peavy, Rios, Dunn, 2 Swisher trades, the Javy trade, the Hudson/Jackson trade. Everything KW has done since the end of 2008 has turned to crap EXCEPT getting Viciedo and Santos. Even Beckham (the "surest" home-grown prospect since Thomas/Ventura) and Mitchell's fate in the minors now is very much up in the air as well. If you want, you can put Chris Sale in the "win" column but the jury's still far from out on that one as well.

Edited June 27, 2011 by caulfield12

[gatnom]

Jake Peavy didn't reveal himself as a total china doll until after he came to our side. There was nothing in his history with the Padres to suggest that he was more fragile than...well, something that's really fragile. And the Alex Rios acquisition looked brilliant last year. It's not KW's fault the guy stunk to start this year. Jackson might have been a dumb call, but the jury's still out on what Hudson's going to amount to. Our scouts were never all that convinced, IIRC. And how about all the players he acquired that have really panned out for us? Floyd, Danks, Crain, Thornton, Humber, AJ, Alexei, Quentin...and that's just this year.

 

I guess you can blame him for not strong-arming Ozzie into benching Dunn, but I would say that's more Ozzie's fault than his. Ozzie needs to have some sense and bench someone who's struggling that bad. KW shouldn't have to intrude on Ozzie's job description and handle his business for him.

 

That being said, I will respect KW even more when he just fires Ozzie outright and hires someone who will do the job correctly.

 

I understand what you're saying, but KW was the one who took on these gambles. It's like signing a free agent to a lucrative contract; injuries and poor performance are a definite possibility. He acquired Peavy while injured, and Peavy has more or less stayed injured for that duration. Rios has been terrible for the majority of the time he's been here. The fact of the matter is that KW has been in a massive, massive slump over the past three years, and that is part of the reason we are not in the greatest shape at the moment (though definitely still in it). What was the last trade KW actually won? Quentin for Carter? Now obviously the jury is still out on a couple of the trades since then, but the Swisher, Jackson, Teahen, and Pierre trades have all been losses while the Peavy and Rios deals continue to look poor.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

I understand what you're saying, but KW was the one who took on these gambles. It's like signing a free agent to a lucrative contract; injuries and poor performance are a definite possibility. He acquired Peavy while injured, and Peavy has more or less stayed injured for that duration. Rios has been terrible for the majority of the time he's been here. The fact of the matter is that KW has been in a massive, massive slump over the past three years, and that is part of the reason we are not in the greatest shape at the moment (though definitely still in it). What was the last trade KW actually won? Quentin for Carter? Now obviously the jury is still out on a couple of the trades since then, but the Swisher, Jackson, Teahen, and Pierre trades have all been losses while the Peavy and Rios deals continue to look poor.

 

 

I'll put it another way.

 

Let's say KW is Bill Miller, a legendary mutual fund manager who beat the S&P average 13 years in a row (no, I won't argue the equivalent is the White Sox winning 13 AL Central championships consecutively, but let's just say their performances are similar, before 2009).

 

Then the stock market crashes....but your fund is STILL performing in the bottom quartile or quintile.

 

Do you excuse it due to "market conditions," meaning that Rios/Peavy/Dunn/Teahen/Linebrink/Pierre, Swisher 1 & 2, Javy, Jackson/Hudson, were all "reasonable" trades at the moments they were made?

 

Do you move your money to another manager...ignoring his past track record, chasing one of the hot young prospects from another hedge fund?

 

Do you hire someone internally (Hahn), someone who's learned the ropes from this former genius...in your belief that KW's style of operating is conducive to putting together a long-term winning team? Or that a combination of his risk-taking and a more measured, statistical/analytical approach is the best combination.

 

In real life, I'm still leaving some of my eggs in this basket (Legg Mason), because I can't ignore those 13 years of results and seeing things that others didn't see. Still, I'm hedging my bets and making lots of other bets because I can't trust Miller due to his overall abysmal performance the last 3-4 years.

 

On the other hand, everyone can be in a slump or lose their confidence (see Dunn)....the question is will that person recover his former magic touch?

 

You never like to sell low and buy high...and that's the position we're in with retaining KW, Ozzie and nearly 1/3rd of our roster at this point.

Edited June 27, 2011 by caulfield12