Ozzie or Kenny?

[VAfan]

Ok, I'll bite. I wouldn't get rid of either of them.

 

I don't think the Sox are out of the race by any means. And they certainly aren't going to get back in the race by firing KW or Ozzie Guillen. In my view, things could be a LOT WORSE.

 

Didn't we let Tony LaRussa go? How did that work out?

 

Ozzie is an unconventional manager, and KW is an unconventional GM. But I would never count either one of them out. They are both intensely competitive. They bleed for the Sox. And for all the bad moves and bonehead deals, there are counter moves and good deals to balance them out and keep us competitive.

 

I would ask anyone who has posted here to name the replacement for Ozzie or KW that is currently available, and then explain why that person is better and would clearly improve the Sox. It's easy to say "blow it up." It's much harder to figure out how to put it together again.

Edited June 29, 2011 by VAfan

[fathom]

Ok, I'll bite. I wouldn't get rid of either of them.

 

I don't think the Sox are out of the race by any means. And they certainly aren't going to get back in the race by firing KW or Ozzie Guillen. In my view, things could be a LOT WORSE.

 

Didn't we let Tony LaRussa go? How did that work out?

 

Ozzie is an unconventional manager, and KW is an unconventional GM. But I would never count either one of them out. They are both intensely competitive. They bleed for the Sox. And for all the bad moves and bonehead deals, there are counter moves and good deals to balance them out and keep us competitive.

 

I would ask anyone who has posted here to name the replacement for Ozzie or KW that is currently available, and then explain why that person is better and would clearly improve the Sox. It's easy to say "blow it up." It's much harder to figure out how to put it together again.

 

Ugh, why do people always say "KW and Ozzie want to win?" Are there managers/general managers that don't want to win?

[Balta1701]

Ugh, why do people always say "KW and Ozzie want to win?" Are there managers/general managers that don't want to win?

The dodgers?

[southsider2k5]

Ugh, why do people always say "KW and Ozzie want to win?" Are there managers/general managers that don't want to win?

 

Yes there are.

[fathom]

Yes there are.

 

Such as? And please don't list Pirates GMs, etc. that don't have the budget each year to try and compete. It's not like any GM we'd bring in would have to field a team with a 50 million dollar budget.

[southsider2k5]

Such as? And please don't list Pirates GMs, etc. that don't have the budget each year to try and compete. It's not like any GM we'd bring in would have to field a team with a 50 million dollar budget.

 

That would be the whole point. Places like that the object is revenue, not winning. Florida comes to mind #1 and so does San Diego right now.

[fathom]

That would be the whole point. Places like that the object is revenue, not winning. Florida comes to mind #1 and so does San Diego right now.

 

But that's the thing...wouldn't any GM that we could bring here likely have the resources to at least field a competitive team? I can't see a situation where a GM would be brought in and told to have a huge fire sale that results in a 50 million dollar payroll. With KW, it seems a lot of people like KW because he's aggressive, but we've seen how that's backfired the past 3 years.

[Milkman delivers]

Ok, I'll bite. I wouldn't get rid of either of them.

 

I don't think the Sox are out of the race by any means. And they certainly aren't going to get back in the race by firing KW or Ozzie Guillen. In my view, things could be a LOT WORSE.

 

Didn't we let Tony LaRussa go? How did that work out?

 

Ozzie is an unconventional manager, and KW is an unconventional GM. But I would never count either one of them out. They are both intensely competitive. They bleed for the Sox. And for all the bad moves and bonehead deals, there are counter moves and good deals to balance them out and keep us competitive.

 

I would ask anyone who has posted here to name the replacement for Ozzie or KW that is currently available, and then explain why that person is better and would clearly improve the Sox. It's easy to say "blow it up." It's much harder to figure out how to put it together again.

 

We also let Jerry Manuel go? How did that work out?

[southsider2k5]

But that's the thing...wouldn't any GM that we could bring here likely have the resources to at least field a competitive team? I can't see a situation where a GM would be brought in and told to have a huge fire sale that results in a 50 million dollar payroll. With KW, it seems a lot of people like KW because he's aggressive, but we've seen how that's backfired the past 3 years.

 

There is saying you want to win, and acting like you want to win. Think of John Paxson.

[OilCan]

One of the callers on the Score said it for me, so succinctly:

 

fire both those ***clowns, promote Hahn, and let him hire his own Mgr.

[OilCan]

I would ask anyone who has posted here to name the replacement for Ozzie or KW that is currently available, and then explain why that person is better and would clearly improve the Sox. It's easy to say "blow it up." It's much harder to figure out how to put it together again.

 

I'll bite on this. Good question VAfan. Good question.

 

Hahn should be ready by now. From what I've read/heard on the radio, he's an educated baseball man who has already had documented results working with people from everywhere (i.e. negotiations with Boras clients).

 

If not, I believe there are some alternatives from historically winning baseball teams (NYY, Boston) with great baseball minds who can come in and fix this.

Here is an article, although a year old, that can shed some light: http://www.aolnews.com/2010/07/05/baseball...-gm-candidates/

One that struck me dead on:

 

Ben Cherington, Red Sox (Senior Vice President, Assistant General Manager)

Age: 36

College: Amherst College

Experience: Indians (1998), Red Sox (1999-Present)

 

For a brief period, Cherington was co-general manager of the Red Sox when Theo Epstein left the club after the 2005 season. He's due for a full-time gig now. Cherington first worked in player development for Boston and now assists Theo Epstein day-to-day with major league player personnel. He has a diverse skill set, and he has experience in amateur scouting, contract negotiations, player development and essentially has a hand in all the duties of a GM already. There are not that many ready-made GM candidates out there with the first-hand experience of Cherington.

 

Here's another:

Al Avila, Tigers (Vice President, Assistant General Manager)

Age: 51

College: St. Thomas University

Experience: Marlins (1992-2001), Tigers (2002-Present)

 

Avila is long overdue to be a GM. These days he is a key adviser to Tigers general manager Dave Dombrowski. With a long resume that spans more than 20 years, Avila has been a critical part of winning clubs throughout his career. With Detroit, Avila played a key role in the deal that brought in Jeremy Bonderman. From his days working in international operations with the Marlins, he can take credit for one of the most successful international signings ever in Miguel Cabrera. In other words, this is a guy who has consistently had an eye for talent. Other names he can stake a claim to include Livan Hernandez, Edgar Renteria, Alex Gonzalez, Luis Castillo and Josh Beckett.

 

Those are good places to start.

 

As far as Managerial prospects. You can look at those who have had success: Bobby Valentine is one example. Or give someone a shot who is long overdue. Here's one:

 

Torey Lovullo

Age: 44

Current Position: Manager of the Red Sox' Triple-A Pawtucket farm club.

Background: Lovullo spent eight seasons as an infielder in the major leagues from 1988-99 with the Tigers, Yankees, Angels, Mariners, Athletics, and Phillies, and also played in Japan. He joined the Indians as a roving minor-league coordinator in 2001 and was a manager in their farm system for eight seasons from 2002-09, including four at the Triple-A level. Lovullo moved to the Red Sox' organization last winter.

Why He is Qualified: Lovullo has been considered ready to manage in the major leagues for the last few years and the biggest factor that caused him to lose out to Manny Acta for the Indians' opening last November was the perception that the organization was not willing to look outside for a different perspective. Lovullo is known as a great communicator who likes to play an aggressive style of baseball that puts the pressure on the opposition with steals and hit-and-runs.

 

Linky: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=11334

 

Now, I could be totally wrong with these names. But, to change the culture of this franchise, which IMHO is needed, these are good places to start.

 

 

[kitekrazy]

Now, I could be totally wrong with these names. But, to change the culture of this franchise, which IMHO is needed, these are good places to start.

 

That would also involve getting rid of Kenny.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

One of the callers on the Score said it for me, so succinctly:

 

fire both those ***clowns, promote Hahn, and let him hire his own Mgr.

 

Yeah, exactly. I see NO reason why either of them should keep their job. I can't even pick one. I'm more concerned with getting Ozzie out of here because it feels like he has more power than KW and he's one of the worst game managers in the sport, but I think KW being gone would do more since he's doing a crappy job finding/evaluating talent, and I am confident his replacement (Hahn) would be a major improvement.

Edited June 29, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[kitekrazy]

Yeah, exactly. I see NO reason why either of them should keep their job. I can't even pick one. I'm more concerned with getting Ozzie out of here because it feels like he has more power than KW and he's one of the worst game managers in the sport, but I think KW being gone would do more since he's doing a crappy job finding/evaluating talent, and I am confident his replacement (Hahn) would be a major improvement.

 

Part of me thinks Ozzie wants to go to the Marlins but he and Reinsdorf have a loyalty to each other. Ozzie is more of a NL type manager. The rest of the baseball world doesn't see as an inept manager like the fans do.

 

I've liked Kenny's aggressiveness in getting someone like Jake Peavy. That story hasn't ended yet on whether it was worth it. His moves in the past few years just don't make sense. He's done a poor job handling the minors. The only way to fix that is with more spending. I don't like it when he acquire players from losing organizations. I think there is something there mentally.

 

[caulfield12]

Part of me thinks Ozzie wants to go to the Marlins but he and Reinsdorf have a loyalty to each other. Ozzie is more of a NL type manager. The rest of the baseball world doesn't see as an inept manager like the fans do.

 

I've liked Kenny's aggressiveness in getting someone like Jake Peavy. That story hasn't ended yet on whether it was worth it. His moves in the past few years just don't make sense. He's done a poor job handling the minors. The only way to fix that is with more spending. I don't like it when he acquire players from losing organizations. I think there is something there mentally.

 

 

Well, Crain and AJ are former Twins.

 

Are you referring to all the ex-Royals we've picked up over the years?

 

Swisher played on winning teams with the A's. O Cabrera almost always played on playoff teams. Even Edwin Jackson's pitched for some very good Tigers and Rays teams.

 

Maybe Javy??

 

A lot of our collegiate draft picks played on College World Series teams, too. Mitchell and Beckham, for example.

Edited June 29, 2011 by caulfield12

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Managers are overrated.

 

General managers hand out stupid contracts, overpay in trades and do terrible jobs handling the draft and player development.

 

Time for Kenny Stanford to walk the plank.

 

Managers are overrated huh? I wonder who it is that has been deciding to give Juan Pierre the most plate appearances on the team then? Cuz it sure as s*** ain't Kenny Williams

[caulfield12]

Managers are overrated huh? I wonder who it is that has been deciding to give Juan Pierre the most plate appearances on the team then? Cuz it sure as s*** ain't Kenny Williams

 

 

But who would you be leading off?

 

Ramirez, one of our better RBI guys?

 

Alex THE LOAF Rios?

 

Lillibridge?

 

Mark The Human Statue Teahen?

 

It's also on KW to give Ozzie a legit leadoff hitter. How many years since 2005 has he succeeded in doing this?

 

He even drafted Mitchell and Walker, but they're miles away, too.

 

 

[southsideirish71]

But who would you be leading off?

 

Ramirez, one of our better RBI guys?

 

Alex THE LOAF Rios?

 

Lillibridge?

 

Mark The Human Statue Teahen?

 

It's also on KW to give Ozzie a legit leadoff hitter. How many years since 2005 has he succeeded in doing this?

 

He even drafted Mitchell and Walker, but they're miles away, too.

 

Listen Kenny has made numerous mistakes IMO. But do you really think that Kenny thought leadoff hitter when Wise made the roster. I blame Kenny for not Ozzie-proofing the lineup more. Pierre and the slappy NL style leadoff hitter is something Ozzie wants and Kenny gave him. They are equally culpable.

 

[Real]

I'd still rather keep Kenny than Ozzie. Ozzie's been nothing but problems the last few years, a lot of it having to do with his f***ing family being interjected into his job as the Sox manager. The two things should've never be allowed to overlap, something Jerry should've put his foot down over years ago.

 

Kenny's worst acquisition (and one that I actually supported) is probably Rios, as at the time I wasn't aware of his lackadaisical effort, "I'll play hard when I feel like it" mentality.. I just thought he was an all star outfielder who can hit about .280..

 

I wanted Peavy as did about 95% of the posters on this site, and being unaware of any arm injuries beyond a brief DL stint in SD for elbow soreness (which MRI's showed no damage..), I didn't have any beef with that acquisition and I was really excited about it. And when he's actually been able to pitch for us, he's been pretty damn good..

 

Crain was a good signing, and Dunn was a good signing (though the red flags were there, like moving to a new league playing a new position (read: Waiting in Dugout with bat in-hand)), nobody predicted this would happen.. NOBODY. So you can't use hindsight with the Dunn signing, because what's happening now (even with the red flags) was simply not predicted by anyone to happen

 

Getting Alexei, Viciedo.. two guys who weren't coveted by anybody in the majors... well, those are pretty obvious to me at this point to be great signs, nobody can argue that

Edited June 29, 2011 by Real

[Milkman delivers]

I'd still rather keep Kenny than Ozzie. Ozzie's been nothing but problems the last few years, a lot of it having to do with his f***ing family being interjected into his job as the Sox manager. The two things should've never be allowed to overlap, something Jerry should've put his foot down over years ago.

 

Kenny's worst acquisition (and one that I actually supported) is probably Rios, as at the time I wasn't aware of his lackadaisical effort, "I'll play hard when I feel like it" mentality.. I just thought he was an all star outfielder who can hit about .280..

 

I wanted Peavy as did about 95% of the posters on this site, and being unaware of any arm injuries beyond a brief DL stint in SD for elbow soreness (which MRI's showed no damage..), I didn't have any beef with that acquisition and I was really excited about it. And when he's actually been able to pitch for us, he's been pretty damn good..

 

Crain was a good signing, and Dunn was a good signing (though the red flags were there, like moving to a new league playing a new position (read: Waiting in Dugout with bat in-hand)), nobody predicted this would happen.. NOBODY. So you can't use hindsight with the Dunn signing, because what's happening now (even with the red flags) was simply not predicted by anyone to happen

 

Getting Alexei, Viciedo.. two guys who weren't coveted by anybody in the majors... well, those are pretty obvious to me at this point to be great signs, nobody can argue that

 

This is hyperbole. There were people who predicted that Dunn would fall flat on his face. I did not, but there were a few people.

[Real]

This is hyperbole. There were people who predicted that Dunn would fall flat on his face. I did not, but there were a few people.

 

I'd love to see this, link?

[Milkman delivers]

I'd love to see this, link?

 

I'm not going back and finding them. This was over the course of the entire offseason and I'm here everyday. People definitely chimed in once in a while with that prediction. Downtownpanther was one of them for sure, but he's a Tigers fan.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'd love to see this, link?

 

I know this is Jason's board. But for now all of Soxtalk belongs to WhiteSoxRandy. He clowned all of us.

[BigSqwert]

I know this is Jason's board. But for now all of Soxtalk belongs to WhiteSoxRandy. He clowned all of us.

LINK

[Real]

I'm waiting for someone to show me more than 1 or 2 people proclaiming Dunn would hit .176 as a Sox player. And I'm sure if I knew any scouts or sports writers, I could get them to confirm that those 1 or 2 people would be crazy for thinking that. It simply wasn't a realistic prediction, I'm not sure how you can even refute that.