Dey tuk ar ggggguunnnnnz

[StrangeSox]

Yeah but you don't have a constitutional right to drive on government roadways.

[Texsox]

This probably deserves its own thread but why are States the magic demarcation line? Why not counties? Townships? Why should Springfield be able to push us around and tell us what to do?

 

Because we were states that came together to form a nation. Individual states voted to accept a new constitution, which we are still using. That constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation which created strong states and a very week national government.

[StrangeSox]

Because we were states that came together to form a nation. Individual states voted to accept a new constitution, which we are still using. That constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation which created strong states and a very week national government.

 

It's a philosophical question, not "how does American government function" question

[The Sir]

I have thoughts on gun safety, mostly because this has always made sense to me, and I'm curious what people think (particularly Infantry) -

 

I start with the assumption that Guns are dangerous tools. That means that, in trained, competent hands, they are far less dangerous than they are in, for instance, my hands (did not grow up around guns, have never fired a gun). I'm neither anti-gun, nor anti-the 2nd Amendment, but I think firearm ownership is a huge resposibility because they are dangerous in the wrong hands.

 

With that in mind, would you be against a training class in firearm use being a prerequisite to gun ownership? Makes sense to me, and I don't think it would really be an inconvenience to someone that already knew the basics of firearm safety, but I'm curious about what others think.

 

You're absolutely right. Guns are tools, and if you use them improperly, they'll kill ya. Me? My guns won't ever kill anyone I don't intend to kill. And that's because I know what gun safety is and I follow it every day.

 

So on that note, I wouldn't be against a mandated class. I think there would be exemptions, like I shouldn't have to take a class because of my training and if you've attended a certified police academy you should be exempted and so on. But if you're just some average joe, then yeah, you should take a class. If you grew up around guns, it will be a breeze. And in general, if you're not a retard, it should be easy. One day should do it. Gun safety isn't hard. Don't point the gun at anybody even if you're sure it's unloaded, keep your finger off the trigger until you're going to pull it, never hand someone a loaded weapon, and even if you are sure it's not loaded, clear it before you hand it to someone. Also, know what you're shooting at and know what's beyond that target. Maybe the class should cover self defense laws within the proper jurisdiction, but except for that, I pretty much just summed up what the class should cover.

 

Stupid gun owners make me and the legitimate gun owners that I'm friends with look bad. A class won't hassle us one bit (hell, I took the class for Texas CC and it was the easiest eight hours of my life), but it might prevent some moron from getting a gun and doing something stupid. So I'm down for it.

[StrangeSox]

Gun storage and protection information would be good too.

[EvilMonkey]

Gun safety isn't hard. Don't point the gun at anybody even if you're sure it's unloaded, keep your finger off the trigger until you're going to pull it, never hand someone a loaded weapon, and even if you are sure it's not loaded, clear it before you hand it to someone. Also, know what you're shooting at and know what's beyond that target. Maybe the class should cover self defense laws within the proper jurisdiction, but except for that, I pretty much just summed up what the class should cover.

I have been hunting and shooting since I was 10. I was taught the above things before I was allowed to touch a gun. It's all about respect. The finger off the trigger is a big thing that many people forget.

[EvilMonkey]

. And then there's the idea that more guns = more likely use of guns. If I fly off the handle and have a gun, I can shoot you. If I don't, I can't.

That idea is for weak minded people that think everyone is a psycho waiting to happen. The basic idea has been shot down in every state with a concealed carry law as crime rates drop.

[StrangeSox]

That idea is for weak minded people that think everyone is a psycho waiting to happen. The basic idea has been shot down in every state with a concealed carry law as crime rates drop.

 

While the studies (Lott, mostly) that claim to show crime rates dropping due to liberalized gun laws are suspect in what they claim, what they do show is that at the very least crime rates don't increase when gun restrictions are removed. What I think I was getting at in that post (it was three months ago now) was the rare "crime of passion" type incidents.

[The Sir]

While the studies (Lott, mostly) that claim to show crime rates dropping due to liberalized gun laws are suspect in what they claim, what they do show is that at the very least crime rates don't increase when gun restrictions are removed. What I think I was getting at in that post (it was three months ago now) was the rare "crime of passion" type incidents.

 

I get what you're saying. However, if you fly off the handle because your wife's in bed with another dude or some dickhead cut you off, and your decision is to shoot that person, you are a psycho. Things just aren't right in your head. I get irate while driving, and often I have a .45 on my hip or under the seat. But I've never shot someone. I've never even pulled it out. Whackos do that, and they shouldn't be owning guns anyway.

[StrangeSox]

I don't think you can compare road rage to catching someone in bed with your wife, and I don't think unpredictable temporary insanity/loss of rational function means you're some kind of psychotic.

 

But more importantly I more or less agree with what both you and alpha are saying here. I need to go make sure that the world isn't ending, brb.

[The Sir]

I have been hunting and shooting since I was 10. I was taught the above things before I was allowed to touch a gun. It's all about respect. The finger off the trigger is a big thing that many people forget.

 

I'm with ya there. Not many things will get you f***ed up quicker in the Army than running around with your finger on the trigger. As for myself, I can't even watch movies without screaming "TRIGGER DISCIPLINE!" when I see violations of that principle.

[Texsox]

It's a philosophical question, not "how does American government function" question

Gotcha. I forget we have a well educated group here. The average Joe Sixpack tends to forget that.

[Texsox]

Guns make some people brave. I have no doubt that given two scenarios, a town where everyone has guns, and a town where no one has guns, there will be less murders in the town without guns. I also believe we tend to overlook the words regulated and militia when discussing what our founding fathers meant. Plus, in 1787 if you wanted meat, you generally were on your own to get it. So the world is much different than when the U.S. Constitution was written. So I do not believe a person not in an organized militia has a guaranteed right to own a gun. I also believe citizens have a right to be able to protect themselves, both with a gun, and from guns. There is the balance that is difficult at best.

[StrangeSox]

Gotcha. I forget we have a well educated group here. The average Joe Sixpack tends to forget that.

 

Even if one were to hold discourse on this topic predicated around the extant American governmental system, one may still be tempted to ask why coalescing power at the State level is an ideal structure, preferable to further delegating State power to local municipalities. Surely, if the claim that States act as a "test bed" of Democracy for various policies and that citizens can freely and easily relocate to the State that endeavours to enact their personal preferences most closely, then one can further reason that delegating the aforementioned powers to an ever more granular level maximizes one's ability to live with one's own ideal governance.

[Texsox]

Even if one were to hold discourse on this topic predicated around the extant American governmental system, one may still be tempted to ask why coalescing power at the State level is an ideal structure, preferable to further delegating State power to local municipalities. Surely, if the claim that States act as a "test bed" of Democracy for various policies and that citizens can freely and easily relocate to the State that endeavours to enact their personal preferences most closely, then one can further reason that delegating the aforementioned powers to an ever more granular level maximizes one's ability to live with one's own ideal governance.

Thank you, I am reading 8th grade ESL papers right now.

[CanOfCorn]

Guns scare the bejesus out of me. Why? Because there are wackos? Well, yes, of course. But, I'm afraid of are the wackos you don't know. The ones that COULD pass any exam. The ones that PRETEND to be on the up-and-up. Look, we are too far gone from banning all guns in the country. Ain't gonna happen. But there are too many stressed-out, near-breaking-point people out there that can put on a show for the license.

 

People like GLTI and Alpha are the ones that I'm not afraid of, not because they know HOW to use a gun, but because they know WHEN to use a gun.

 

There is no reason in this society to have a concealed weapon unless you are police or a licensed detective or in some kind of harms way on a daily basis. But, that's JMHO.

[Jenksismyhero]

Guns scare the bejesus out of me. Why? Because there are wackos? Well, yes, of course. But, I'm afraid of are the wackos you don't know. The ones that COULD pass any exam. The ones that PRETEND to be on the up-and-up. Look, we are too far gone from banning all guns in the country. Ain't gonna happen. But there are too many stressed-out, near-breaking-point people out there that can put on a show for the license.

 

People like GLTI and Alpha are the ones that I'm not afraid of, not because they know HOW to use a gun, but because they know WHEN to use a gun.

 

There is no reason in this society to have a concealed weapon unless you are police or a licensed detective or in some kind of harms way on a daily basis. But, that's JMHO.

 

This is an incredibly rational opinion. Unfortunately, most criminals aren't rationale. Neither are the crazies who end up using guns to kill people.

 

As to the bolded, protection is a reason, and really the only reason you need. Assuming you go through the rigamarole of obtaining your gun in a legal way, of keeping up to date with various safety courses, pay your fees, whatever, there's absolutely no good reason not to let you carry your gun whenever you want to (with obvious exceptions to places where it should be banned such as government buildings, sporting events, etc.) Why punish the majority for what a very small minority does?

Edited October 14, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[Texsox]

There is no reason in this society to have a concealed weapon

 

Reason #1 You have to be able to get your gun from point a to point b and wearing your gun outside your clothes for all the honest world to see⁽¹⁾ just ain't a good idea JMHO

 

(1) Thanks to Townes Van Zandt