5/9 of our lineup is a black hole, and we're only 4.5 games back

[whitesoxfan101]

Can somebody come up with a solution for two, maybe three of those five black holes? I figure, if we can get noticeably improved production from two of the five guys, and somewhat improved from a third, we'll win the division. Because I like the four guys that don't suck right now, as well as the pitching as a whole. I don't think this thread is negative either. All I'm asking for a couple of our players to stop sucking. Or maybe for Lillibridge to play every single day and continue to ball out (even though I don't know if he can). Or maybe for Dayan Viciedo to make an appearance and hit the ball far a few times. Just, average major league production. Rios has looked better lately, which is nice. Anyways, this division is so winnable, and it won't even take extraordinary things from our players to do it.

Edited June 24, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[knightni]

Lillibridge/Beckham/Vizquel - 2B

Rios - CF

Quentin - LF

Konerko - 1B

Ramirez - SS

Viciedo - RF

Dunn - DH

Pierzynski - C

Morel/Beckham/Vizquel - 3B

 

 

[whitesoxfan101]

Lillibridge/Beckham/Vizquel - 2B

Rios - CF

Quentin - LF

Konerko - 1B

Ramirez - SS

Viciedo - RF

Dunn - DH

Pierzynski - C

Morel/Beckham/Vizquel - 3B

 

I'm with this for now. Is there a point where playing Lillibridge regularly (perhaps in RF) and benching Dunn for the most part (with Viciedo at DH) becomes an option? Giving up on Dunn seems crazy considering his career resume and our lack of overall options, but it's almost July now.

Edited June 24, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I find it hard to complain that your #8 and #9 hitters are not setting the world on fire. Yeah, Beckham slumping again really hurts, but people need to lay off someone like Morel who was not even a blip on the radar coming in to 2010, and is acceptable on offense while providing great defense.

 

Look at almost any lineup in baseball, and you will find at least 1 or 2 "black holes" toward the bottom of the lineup.

[knightni]

Lilli might be better floating between LF, CF, RF, 2B for the rest of '11. He seems to hit worse when he stays in one position too long.

 

Dunn's going to have to work through his issues. He may get pinch hit for more in the late innings, but he needs to try and hit his way out of this slump. I've been wondering if he's had his eyes checked lately. He is 34 now and for all we know, his reflexes could be slowing down enough where his eyesight may need to be relied on more.

[Milkman delivers]

I think it's a terrible idea to remove Quention from RF. He's a headcase and he's been playing well this season. Don't mess with that. Viciedo to LF.

[whitesoxfan101]

I find it hard to complain that your #8 and #9 hitters are not setting the world on fire. Yeah, Beckham slumping again really hurts, but people need to lay off someone like Morel who was not even a blip on the radar coming in to 2010, and is acceptable on offense while providing great defense.

 

Look at almost any lineup in baseball, and you will find at least 1 or 2 "black holes" toward the bottom of the lineup.

 

This lineup has 5 legitimate black holes in it. Although, it's getting closer to 4.5 since Brent is seeing more burn. Even beyond the starters, Omar and especially Ramon are way off their paces from last year.

 

Milkman, I'm not against keeping Quentin in RF and playing Dayan in LF. I'm more concerned about the offense right now than anything.

Edited June 24, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[knightni]

I think it's a terrible idea to remove Quentin from RF. He's a headcase and he's been playing well this season. Don't mess with that. Viciedo to LF.

 

I'm not against keeping him in RF. It just seemed like a "dream" scenario to put that lineup in.

 

That lineup is unlikely to happen with the present manager though, because of his obsession with the L-R-L-R batting order.

[Milkman delivers]

I'm not against keeping him in RF. It just seemed like a "dream" scenario to put that lineup in.

 

That lineup is unlikely to happen with the present manager though, because of his obsession with the L-R-L-R batting order.

 

At the risk of saying something hyperbolic, he's obsessed with more than that. He is dead-set on playing a guy who is terrible at baseball. He's terrible in the sense that he's a shell of his former self and he's worse than almost all other major league players according to a wide variety of statistics. In no way am I saying that he's actually bad at the sport as a whole, as he's likely better than 99% of the world's population at the sport. I know he's better than me and I'm not passing judgment on him as though I'm better than him, just stating that according to the metrics we have available to us, he's inferior to other options that are readily available to this team. This is also no reflection on Juan Pierre (in case you were still wondering to whom I was referring) as a person, as he seems to be a well-liked individual and is more than likely a great human being. He is just hindering this team and we have very little room to keep a hindrance around. I wish him nothing but the best in his personal life and I hope that he makes it on another team. He just needs to go.

 

[knightni]

I truly believe that Oz would replace Pierre with Lillibridge if Elf was a lefty hitter. But since he's just another RHP, he won't.

[whitesoxfan101]

At the risk of saying something hyperbolic, he's obsessed with more than that. He is dead-set on playing a guy who is terrible at baseball. He's terrible in the sense that he's a shell of his former self and he's worse than almost all other major league players according to a wide variety of statistics. In no way am I saying that he's actually bad at the sport as a whole, as he's likely better than 99% of the world's population at the sport. I know he's better than me and I'm not passing judgment on him as though I'm better than him, just stating that according to the metrics we have available to us, he's inferior to other options that are readily available to this team. This is also no reflection on Juan Pierre (in case you were still wondering to whom I was referring) as a person, as he seems to be a well-liked individual and is more than likely a great human being. He is just hindering this team and we have very little room to keep a hindrance around. I wish him nothing but the best in his personal life and I hope that he makes it on another team. He just needs to go.

 

 

I actually think in the process of attempting to avoid being hyperbolic, you ended up being hyperbolic.

[caulfield12]

LOL.

 

Now everyone is being too kind and cordial. I think we've all written similar posts over the last 2-3 weeks about Pierre. "That future totalitarian WW II Austrian-born leader sure was a very talented artist, had a difficult life growing up in Austria, was confused about how to deal with women. It's not his fault he wasn't born with blue eyes. He was really hardworking...he was the first one to the Reichstag meetings and last one to leave. He was always willing to give his time to the media to provide a deadline-friendy quote."

 

Do we really have to throw five positives into posts now to make our points in order to avoid being too one-sided or extreme?

 

Nobody hates Pierre, that's not the point. He just represents the easiest and most logical fix...since improving that position won't require going out and getting another player.

 

The counterarguments are obvious. He's working hard....he's had a very solid second half in 2010, what's to say it won't happen again? He can't be this bad for a whole season, can he? Who will hit leadoff in his absence? Lillibridge's going to get exposed. We need to keep Alexei down in the line-up to drive in runs. We can't have a 44 year old or Alex Rios at the top of the line-up when he's just starting to look like he might turn it around. We still have $2.75 million invested in him, etc. We can afford to wait a couple of weeks so that Dayan won't be able to get to Super2 status and cost us $8-10 million more in future salary allocations.

 

PS Like Megan Fox, I don't want to get fired from SoxTalk or get in hot water with Stephen Spielberg. I just think can go too far to the other side...to "apologize/rationalize" for every post we make. That seems even worse, somehow. Better to call Hitler pure evil, or Juan Pierre "really bad," as long as evidence/documentation are provided. It almost feels like we're abrogating our responsibility to "be ourselves" in order to write like "objective" newspaper reporters.

 

Positive spin: We're only 3 1/2 GB of our real threat, the Tigers

Negative spin: We're only 3 1/2 games ahead of our mortal enemies, the Twins

Edited June 24, 2011 by caulfield12

[hi8is]

I'll give it a crack...

 

Juan Pierre has been WAY down across the board this year. We all know that.

 

All his statistics are no bueno - may it be fielding, stolen bases, or on base percentage.

The logical choice is to replace him but it seems that pride or some stubborn faith within our organization is preventing a move from being made.

 

Hell, I hope that Juan turns it around but seriously - every time a fly ball is hit his way -- I hold my breath.

On the rare occasion that he actually gets on base - I foresee him getting thrown out ( though since he only has 2 attempts this month - it seems he has stopped trying to use his "wheels" )

 

Anyhow.... there is a bunch to harp on when it comes to our production from the leadoff / LF spot but I for one really hope that Juan improves... I just don't expect it.

 

One thing I do fully expect - is for some sort of moves to be made within the next 6 weeks.

 

What they'll be - I have no clue... but I do have trust in the belief that Kenny, Ozzie, and Jerry all really want to make the team better - even if it means biting the bullet. You'd have to hope that last years rotating DH brought Ozzie some humility... if it didn't thou, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I have faith that Rios, Dunn, and Beckham will all have good second half numbers.

 

Rios came on strong last year during the second half if I'm not mistaken.

Beckham had a great second half for sure - that I remember well.

 

Dunn has been so consistent with his end of season numbers that I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he put up monster power numbers coming shortly and carrying into October.

 

Our bullpen looks to be locked in.

Humber is the real deal and the rest of the rotation is doing well.

 

Things are looking up for the Sox and with Detriot losing 2 of 3 to a HORRID dodger team... we're in this thing.

It'll be a fun few months of the 2011 season coming up here.

 

Go SoX! Let's sweep Washington and have a 30 game summer run circa 2010

 

[caulfield12]

I'll give it a crack...

 

Juan Pierre has been WAY down across the board this year. We all know that.

 

All his statistics are no bueno - may it be fielding, stolen bases, or on base percentage.

The logical choice is to replace him but it seems that pride or some stubborn faith within our organization is preventing a move from being made.

 

Hell, I hope that Juan turns it around but seriously - every time a fly ball is hit his way -- I hold my breath.

On the rare occasion that he actually gets on base - I foresee him getting thrown out ( though since he only has 2 attempts this month - it seems he has stopped trying to use his "wheels" )

 

Anyhow.... there is a bunch to harp on when it comes to our production from the leadoff / LF spot but I for one really hope that Juan improves... I just don't expect it.

 

One thing I do fully expect - is for some sort of moves to be made within the next 6 weeks.

 

What they'll be - I have no clue... but I do have trust in the belief that Kenny, Ozzie, and Jerry all really want to make the team better - even if it means biting the bullet. You'd have to hope that last years rotating DH brought Ozzie some humility... if it didn't thou, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I have faith that Rios, Dunn, and Beckham will all have good second half numbers.

 

Rios came on strong last year during the second half if I'm not mistaken.

Beckham had a great second half for sure - that I remember well.

 

Dunn has been so consistent with his end of season numbers that I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if he put up monster power numbers coming shortly and carrying into October.

 

Our bullpen looks to be locked in.

Humber is the real deal and the rest of the rotation is doing well.

 

Things are looking up for the Sox and with Detriot losing 2 of 3 to a HORRID dodger team... we're in this thing.

It'll be a fun few months of the 2011 season coming up here.

 

Go SoX! Let's sweep Washington and have a 30 game summer run circa 2010

 

 

 

Rios, .879 OPS before ASB vs. a Brian Anderson-esque .684 last year in the 2nd half. We'd have to be elated to get 684 again this season.

 

More of the same this year, although he's hit a couple of homers recently and showed (for a stretch) an ability to go up the middle and to the right side.

 

Beckham was much much better, you're right there. Unfortunately, he can't seem to put together more than a solid month or two before falling back into the same bad habits offensively.

 

Losing 2 out of 3 to the Dodgers on the road isn't surprising. You could pull up stretches for the Sox, Indians and Twins and say "how could they lose to those teams?" just like how could they sweep Boston, or play NY and TB so well?

 

The concern about Dunn is that the constant "buzz" about his strikeouts, the home fans booing incessantly....PHing the bench for him against LHPer's, it might start to ruin his thought process for the entire season. Let's hope there's some kind of injury, eye problem, adjusting to new leagues or DHing, carrying extra weight....something to explain it. Otherwise, Cory Snyder and Steve Sax can rest easy that their negligible contributions will be forgotten in the world of White Sox FA busts. Only Jaime Navarro is keeping Dunn from being the worst (so far).

 

 

Edited June 24, 2011 by caulfield12

[hi8is]

Rios, .879 OPS before ASB vs. a Brian Anderson-esque .684 last year in the 2nd half. We'd have to be elated to get 684 again this season.

thanks for the clarification there - I couldn't remember exactly how rios's season went last year.

 

on the other points - I was just stating some general thoughts / hopes and don't really have any interest in a debate

[Lemon_44]

Rios, .879 OPS before ASB vs. a Brian Anderson-esque .684 last year in the 2nd half. We'd have to be elated to get 684 again this season.

 

More of the same this year, although he's hit a couple of homers recently and showed (for a stretch) an ability to go up the middle and to the right side.

 

Beckham was much much better, you're right there. Unfortunately, he can't seem to put together more than a solid month or two before falling back into the same bad habits offensively.

 

Losing 2 out of 3 to the Dodgers on the road isn't surprising. You could pull up stretches for the Sox, Indians and Twins and say "how could they lose to those teams?" just like how could they sweep Boston, or play NY and TB so well?

 

The concern about Dunn is that the constant "buzz" about his strikeouts, the home fans booing incessantly....PHing the bench for him against LHPer's, it might start to ruin his thought process for the entire season. Let's hope there's some kind of injury, eye problem, adjusting to new leagues or DHing, carrying extra weight....something to explain it. Otherwise, Cory Snyder and Steve Sax can rest easy that their negligible contributions will be forgotten in the world of White Sox FA busts. Only Jaime Navarro is keeping Dunn from being the worst (so far).

I'm not as worried about Rios as others. I haven't seen all the games but a good majority and it seems like Alex is constantly hitting shots but right at people. I know he has had his problems as well but at least he's hitting the ball hard at times. Beckham and Dunn can't have the same thing said about them. They K or hit alot of easy pop outs. Beckham turned it around in the 2nd half last year so there's hope. As for Dunn, I think he's toast for this year and I think it's all about being heavy. He's not going to get in shape this year but hopefully he is motivated this off season and comes in under 300lbs. next year. Dunn looks like a softball player out there. You would think he'd be embarassed. I think he'll end up hitting about .190 with 20 HR and 65 RBI.

[soxrwhite]

The utility role is a very important one. This player plays almost as much as aregular, but at different positions. Lilli plays his best ball when fulfilling that role. Make him a regular and you lose your utuity man and diminish his success. leave him in the utility spot. Have him,Pierre,or Vizquel lead of as one of them will be in every game. 4.5 games back makes me think the Sox can win this division with a hot streak and some consistent play. Lets go Sox!

[caulfield12]

The utility role is a very important one. This player plays almost as much as aregular, but at different positions. Lilli plays his best ball when fulfilling that role. Make him a regular and you lose your utuity man and diminish his success. leave him in the utility spot. Have him,Pierre,or Vizquel lead of as one of them will be in every game. 4.5 games back makes me think the Sox can win this division with a hot streak and some consistent play. Lets go Sox!

 

 

Unfortunately, my feeling is that Ozzie believes Pierre has to be in there every game to get a rhythm established and get hot again offensively.

 

You might see Vizquel and Lillibridge taking more time from Beckham/Morel/Dunn/Rios, but probably not at the expense of playing time for Juan YET.

 

 

It seems Juan has another 10 games or so to play everyday...then, depending on the standings and if he's showing ANY signs of progress with OBP, AVG and being more aggressive again on the basepaths, they'll see how far they can ride it out into June as long as they're within 5 games or so.

Edited June 24, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Unfortunately, my feeling is that Ozzie believes Pierre has to be in there every game to get a rhythm established and get hot again offensively.

 

You might see Vizquel and Lillibridge taking more time from Beckham/Morel/Dunn/Rios, but probably not at the expense of playing time for Juan YET.

I really don't think Lillibridge is going to take IF playing time. Not only because Vizquel is there...but because he's been so bloody good in the OF that we're going to keep that division. Teahen will cover the corners occasionally and piss me off constantly when Ozzie benches Morel for him because Morel is a righty, Vizquel will cover up the middle IF, and Lillibridge gets the whole OF.

 

With the lack of any other true backup OF on this team, putting the Stealth Elf in that role actually is quite sensible. No need to blow his knee out while playing the IF or get him thinking about other positions.

[caulfield12]

I really don't think Lillibridge is going to take IF playing time. Not only because Vizquel is there...but because he's been so bloody good in the OF that we're going to keep that division. Teahen will cover the corners occasionally and piss me off constantly when Ozzie benches Morel for him because Morel is a righty, Vizquel will cover up the middle IF, and Lillibridge gets the whole OF.

 

With the lack of any other true backup OF on this team, putting the Stealth Elf in that role actually is quite sensible. No need to blow his knee out while playing the IF or get him thinking about other positions.

 

 

Ideally, you'd just boot Teahen off the roster and use Milledge or DeAza to give you a more potent bench, but that's never going to happen.

 

I agree that Lillibridge is our best defensively outfielder, at least this season. Rios COULD be better, but he's been inconsistent compared to what we've seen out of him in the past...especially with taking bad routes to the ball.

 

Morel has weathered all those early-season errors and apparently has earned a bit of Ozzie's respect.

[Balta1701]

Ideally, you'd just boot Teahen off the roster and use Milledge or DeAza to give you a more potent bench, but that's never going to happen.

 

I agree that Lillibridge is our best defensively outfielder, at least this season. Rios COULD be better, but he's been inconsistent compared to what we've seen out of him in the past...especially with taking bad routes to the ball.

 

Morel has weathered all those early-season errors and apparently has earned a bit of Ozzie's respect.

The actual problem with booting Teahen is that "the guy who backs up the corner spots" is actually a useful role. You can pull Konerko in the 7th inning of a blowout or pull Konerko in the 8th inning if you need speed on the basepaths, but you can't do that if Milledge/De Aza is on your bench and Dunn is the DH. Teahen is actually a useful cog, he just is playing too much, particularly at 3b (I can almost say he cost us the game on Monday. It's a stretch but it's not dishonest. Cost us 2 runs directly and worked Gavin over for 10+ pitches because he couldn't get an out Morel or Vizquel would have gotten)

 

I'd love to believe Morel has earned Ozzie's respect, but we faced 2 RHP in a row earlier this week, and of course, Morel got benched for both those games. Right after he was a key guy in winning the game before it. He then came back and got the GW RBI in the next game.

[WHarris1]

Even if Dunn starts hitting for just a decent amount of power, & Rios continues showing some semblence of a ML player, & Dayan possibly replaced Pierre this lineup would be really really scary. And no part of any of that is all that far fetched (except maybe Pierre getting benched, but who knows).

 

With the way PK, CQ, AJP, and AR have played with just a little boost from Dunn and Rios the lineup would be pretty damn formidable.

[GoSox05]

The June numbers for Rios don't look that bad. So hopefully he's coming around.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I still don't trust this team, but at least they're keeping me interested.

[NorthSideSox72]

The June numbers for Rios don't look that bad. So hopefully he's coming around.

Just watching the Cubs series, he was starting to look a lot better at the plate. Not just on results, but his approach. I feel like he may be about to turn it around and get hot for a while.

 

And I think Beckham seems to have figured out what was getting him with his hands.

 

Dunn is the guy we really need to get going now.