Kalapse Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:33 PM) Whereas Pierre is among the league leader in making outs. He's still leading the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:43 PM) He's still leading the majors. I love you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 I could care less if his OBP is .340 since April 30th, the fact is his OBP for the season is what, .324 still? That means his streaks haven't been enough to offset his suckitude and therefore he's still a bad player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:27 PM) Its backup QB syndrome. The guy who isn't playing is always the most popular guy, because he doesn't ever make outs. The backup QB put up an .840 OPS in the majors last season and has been putting up big numbers in the minors, meanwhile our everday LF has been battling Aubrey Huff and Raul Ibanez for the lowest WAR in baseball and has battled the last 10 days to move up to 5th worst. When you look at his numbers on the season what exactly does he do well? His K rate is pretty good, that's about it. His BB% is 6.8%, he has a .324 OBP, he's hitting .264, he has a .047 ISO, he's the most adept player in baseball at making outs, his SB% is 56%, his UZR/150 is -16.7, he has the worst arm in baseball and he's struggled to get down bunts since coming to the Sox. Sounds like a terrific player, why would anyone want him replaced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:33 PM) Whereas Pierre is among the league leader in making outs. Actually, he's not even in the top ten. http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/sor...Bats/order/true AB - H Uggla - 264 outs Melky - 261 Ichiro - 260 Stubbs - 259 Weeks - 258 Young - 254 A. Jackson - 252 Castro - 251 Rollins - 251 Rios - 249 Beltre - 249 Markakis - 248 Infante - 248 Pierre - 248 then there's roughly 20 others between 245-246. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:43 PM) He's had 2 horrible months out of 3, his OBP on the year is .324, his ISO is .047, he's 13 of 23 in SB and he's been hot garbage in the field. He's in the middle of a hot streak that's gotten his numbers back to bad rather than among the worst in the game, cherry picking some stats doesn't change the fact that he's beed awful this season. Of course no one's complaining right now he has a .900+ OPS over his last 10 games, it's a very convenient time to start posting some Juan Pierre stats. His ISO? Seriously? Should I start complaining about Dunn's stolen bases too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggsmaggs Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Pierre has no doubt stepped up his game. Fielding still questionable. But he is making himself much less of a black hole now. If he plays like he has the past two weeks (while still not great), he is at least serviceable unlike Dunn, Rios and Morel. I haven't been saying Viciedo for Pierre for the last 1.5 weeks, so that should say I how I feel about him. I am all for Viciedo for Dunn now. Edited July 7, 2011 by maggsmaggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 Yeah, that's how ESPN calculates outs made, the standard is (AB-H) + DP + SF + SH + CS = outs made which is what BR uses and Pierre leads the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:52 PM) His ISO? Seriously? Should I start complaining about Dunn's stolen bases too? If Dunn was 0 for 10 in SB, then yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 I can't imagine leading the majors in sacrifices can be viewed as a bad thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:52 PM) His ISO? Seriously? Should I start complaining about Dunn's stolen bases too? It's completely ridiculous that you just ignore ISO for leadoff hitters especially when they don't f***ing get on base or steal bases at a particularly high clip. When he's setting records for lowest ISO among OF, there's a serious problem and that's what he did last season. You CAN NOT have a player at the top of the lineup, picking up the most PA on your club who is incapable of picking up an XBH. His .260 whatever batting average is about as weak as they come, how in the hell is that acceptable? How exactly does it hurt your team when your leadoff hitter actually picks up a double on occasion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:58 PM) If Dunn was 0 for 10 in SB, then yes. I think you missed my point. What is Pierre's career ISO? Did anyone on here think we acquired Pierre for his ISO? EDIT: if I'm calculating this correctly, Pierre's career ISO is .067. I fail to see how asking a player to do what he's never been capable of doing is relevant to this conversation. Edited July 7, 2011 by Greg Hibbard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:59 PM) I can't imagine leading the majors in sacrifices can be viewed as a bad thing. Then there's leading the league in CS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:59 PM) I can't imagine leading the majors in sacrifices can be viewed as a bad thing. It's not exactly a great thing either, if the player has good stats around it then it's acceptable. If not, then it means the best thing you can really get out of a player is to hope he can waste an out to get someone over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 02:00 PM) I think you missed my point. What is Pierre's career ISO? Did anyone on here think we acquired Pierre for his ISO? About 20 points higher than it is this season. It's one of the reasons I wanted nothing to do with him and think he's pretty bad at baseball. I'll ignore his ISO once that BB% comes up a bit from his sad 6.8%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 12:52 PM) His ISO? Seriously? Should I start complaining about Dunn's stolen bases too? The point is that he's not getting himself to second base either with the bat or his legs, so his usefulness as a leadoff hitter is questionable, and his OBP over a time period is his ONLY quasi-acceptable stat, so yes, that is cherrypicking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 02:00 PM) I think you missed my point. What is Pierre's career ISO? Did anyone on here think we acquired Pierre for his ISO? Pierre has failed at what he was supposed to bring, the ISO is the icing on the cake that he can't do anything productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 I find the histrionics in this thread pretty astounding, given that he is apparently returning to form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 01:51 PM) The backup QB put up an .840 OPS in the majors last season and has been putting up big numbers in the minors, meanwhile our everday LF has been battling Aubrey Huff and Raul Ibanez for the lowest WAR in baseball and has battled the last 10 days to move up to 5th worst. When you look at his numbers on the season what exactly does he do well? His K rate is pretty good, that's about it. His BB% is 6.8%, he has a .324 OBP, he's hitting .264, he has a .047 ISO, he's the most adept player in baseball at making outs, his SB% is 56%, his UZR/150 is -16.7, he has the worst arm in baseball and he's struggled to get down bunts since coming to the Sox. Sounds like a terrific player, why would anyone want him replaced? It isn't just Pierre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 02:14 PM) It isn't just Pierre. Of course it isn't but he's the most easily replaced. He doesn't have $38M or $44M remaining on his contract, his upside is minimal and there's a replacement waiting in AAA. You can b**** about Dunn and Rios all you want but they're pretty much unmovable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 02:20 PM) Of course it isn't but he's the most easily replaced. He doesn't have $38M or $44M remaining on his contract, his upside is minimal and there's a replacement waiting in AAA. You can b**** about Dunn and Rios all you want but they're pretty much unmovable. And when that virtually unproven replacement hits .240 for a month with a .260 obp and no ability to steal, then what? Is it more likely that a veteran of 11 years with nearly a .300 career average will improve, or that a player with no major league experience will struggle? I don't understand why people assume Viciedo will succeed or that there aren't tradeoffs when comparing Viciedo to even a struggling Pierre. Edited July 7, 2011 by Greg Hibbard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 08:30 PM) And when that virtually unproven replacement hits .240 for a month with a .260 obp and no ability to steal, then what? Is it more likely that a veteran of 11 years with nearly a .300 career average will improve, or that a player with no major league experience will struggle? I don't understand why people assume Viciedo will succeed or that there aren't tradeoffs when comparing Viciedo to even a struggling Pierre. Good stuff, Hibbard. Some people don't want to hear anything positive about Juan. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) And when that virtually unproven replacement hits .240 for a month with a .260 obp and no ability to steal, then what? Is it more likely that a veteran of 11 years with nearly a .300 career average will improve, or that a player with no major league experience will struggle? I don't understand why people assume Viciedo will succeedm or that there aren't tradeoffs when comparing Viciedo to even a struggling Pierre. Sad thing is, with Viciedo's power he's probably still worth more than Pierre is hitting. And it's not like Viciedo has shown he can't hit MLB pitching. In other words, Viciedo's worst case scenario is pretty much not going to be anything different from what Pierre gives you. If anything, it also shows the Sox what they have in him and whether he is a building stone for next year or if they should not be so dependent on him. And a veteran of 11 years!? Really, you're going to bring that up when it's a speed guy?? The guy has clearly lost 3 steps or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 7, 2011 Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 02:34 PM) Good stuff, Hibbard. Some people don't want to hear anything positive about Juan. Period. Honestly, name one thing that is positive out of Pierre? And a legit positive, not some bulls*** that he's raised his OBP a tad while it's still sitting at a s***ty number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 7, 2011 Author Share Posted July 7, 2011 QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 7, 2011 -> 02:36 PM) Honestly, name one thing that is positive out of Pierre? And a legit positive, not some bulls*** that he's raised his OBP a tad while it's still sitting at a s***ty number. He's hit a number of clutch, game-winning hits recently that should have made up for some of the games he's lost with his glove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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