Fan dies after fall at Rangers game

[Texsox]

I'm with SS on this. What is appropriate? I'm not certain, but they are linked. It will help both of them. Hell, have his foundation set up a trust fund and college fund.

[southsider2k5]

As stupid as it sounds, it was indeed through some fault of his. If I toss a ball to a guy who's standing on a corner and it's slightly low and he reaches for it, causing him to stumble into the path of a truck, I initiated the sequence. I didn't mean to do it, but I caused it.

I absolutely think Hamilton should step in and help this kid. He's not legally obligated to do so, but he should want to do so as a human.

 

This is exactly how I feel about it. And if he doesn't, I have no problem thinking less of him.

[southsider2k5]

No one's denying he wasn't involved with what happened, but there's no fault. Come on...how far do you want to track it back?

 

Who hit the ball that went to Hamilton? Who threw the pitch allowing him to hit the ball to Hamilton? How about the people that built the railing at that height, even if it meets standard? The people who made the decision to put the electronic scoreboard there and have a gap? You could go on and on.

 

This is petty exaggeration for the sake of argument. None of it even makes any sense. It is like reading Joe Cowley.

[kitekrazy]

So what? Is Josh supposed to send him a check every month? Put him through college? Land him a job in baseball? He tossed the damn ball into the stands. This occurs quite frequently. Happened to be a guy went for the ball without any regards to his personal safety and a tragedy occurred. Hey, I feel really bad for the kid. Don't get it twisted. But Q suggested that Josh is forever in debt to this kid because his father died. And anything less than that and he'll hate him? Are you serious? You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

Personal accountability doesn't exist in America.

[caulfield12]

One thing is for certain.

 

If they passed a new MLB rule that players/ballboys or ballgirls can never give/toss a baseball into the stands, it would be the wrong decision.

 

We've had literally thousands of gun homicides and school shootings and yet nobody would ever dare to take that freedom away from the American people.

 

Unfortunately, personal responsibility is something we're lacking. Seems we always have to find someone to blame. While the example cited earlier was extreme....well, the pitcher is at fault for the pitch that was too far inside and then Conor Jackson is partially at fault and the ballboys down the LF line and then the architects who designed the corner of that stadium (HOK I think) so that a foul ball would bounce all the way around to Josh Hamilton in that exact position.

 

It's like those Final Destination movies. Wrong place, wrong time. 5-10 years ago, there was a plastic barrier put up so that fans would never fall back behind the scoreboard...but unfortunately, so many fans took license with that the dove over the railings and onto the barrier to fight for foul balls and create a disturbance or even fights. So those irresponsible people who changed the minds of Rangers' management to remove the barrier are also at fault, no?

 

I wonder how the situation would change if it was a rookie outfielder who was unlikely to stick in the majors. Or, if instead of a fireman's son, the man was the CEO of Enron (well, a similar company) or head of the Dr. Pepper Company. Would a rookie feel "less" responsibility being in less of a position to make restitution. Do we expect Josh Hamilton to be even more of a "hero" because that role has been thrust upon him....in a sense, he used (in cynic's eyes) his recovery from addiction and backstory to make himself even more popular and marketable, higher Q ratings, etc. Would it be different if he hadn't become a born-again Christian and never fired his (first) Jewish agent for being a non-believer?

 

Lots of deeper issues to consider here.

 

Can you imagine if something like this happened when Alex Rios tossed a ball at USCF, compared to Konerko or Buehrle?

 

 

 

 

[Quin]

One thing is for certain.

 

If they passed a new MLB rule that players/ballboys or ballgirls can never give/toss a baseball into the stands, it would be the wrong decision.

 

We've had literally thousands of gun homicides and school shootings and yet nobody would ever dare to take that freedom away from the American people.

 

Unfortunately, personal responsibility is something we're lacking. Seems we always have to find someone to blame. While the example cited earlier was extreme....well, the pitcher is at fault for the pitch that was too far inside and then Conor Jackson is partially at fault and the ballboys down the LF line and then the architects who designed the corner of that stadium (HOK I think) so that a foul ball would bounce all the way around to Josh Hamilton in that exact position.

 

It's like those Final Destination movies. Wrong place, wrong time. 5-10 years ago, there was a plastic barrier put up so that fans would never fall back behind the scoreboard...but unfortunately, so many fans took license with that the dove over the railings and onto the barrier to fight for foul balls and create a disturbance or even fights. So those irresponsible people who changed the minds of Rangers' management to remove the barrier are also at fault, no?

 

I wonder how the situation would change if it was a rookie outfielder who was unlikely to stick in the majors. Or, if instead of a fireman's son, the man was the CEO of Enron (well, a similar company) or head of the Dr. Pepper Company. Would a rookie feel "less" responsibility being in less of a position to make restitution. Do we expect Josh Hamilton to be even more of a "hero" because that role has been thrust upon him....in a sense, he used (in cynic's eyes) his recovery from addiction and backstory to make himself even more popular and marketable, higher Q ratings, etc. Would it be different if he hadn't become a born-again Christian and never fired his (first) Jewish agent for being a non-believer?

Lots of deeper issues to consider here.

 

Can you imagine if something like this happened when Alex Rios tossed a ball at USCF, compared to Konerko or Buehrle?

 

WTF?!

 

This just made me not like Hamilton, since I was never to high on him anyway, just indifferent.

 

 

[caulfield12]

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/good-th...-about-baseball

 

http://livefromlawschool.blogspot.com/2008...amilton-do.html

 

I'm pretty sure Sosnick has written a book about this (his experience of becoming a sports agent)...and detailed the Hamilton situation there as well as on a blog online.

Edited July 11, 2011 by caulfield12

[Quin]

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/good-th...-about-baseball

 

http://livefromlawschool.blogspot.com/2008...amilton-do.html

 

I'm pretty sure Sosnick has written a book about this (his experience of becoming a sports agent)...and detailed the Hamilton situation there as well as on a blog online.

 

Well, that's a dick move.

[southsider2k5]

One thing is for certain.

 

If they passed a new MLB rule that players/ballboys or ballgirls can never give/toss a baseball into the stands, it would be the wrong decision.

 

We've had literally thousands of gun homicides and school shootings and yet nobody would ever dare to take that freedom away from the American people.

 

Unfortunately, personal responsibility is something we're lacking. Seems we always have to find someone to blame. While the example cited earlier was extreme....well, the pitcher is at fault for the pitch that was too far inside and then Conor Jackson is partially at fault and the ballboys down the LF line and then the architects who designed the corner of that stadium (HOK I think) so that a foul ball would bounce all the way around to Josh Hamilton in that exact position.

It's like those Final Destination movies. Wrong place, wrong time. 5-10 years ago, there was a plastic barrier put up so that fans would never fall back behind the scoreboard...but unfortunately, so many fans took license with that the dove over the railings and onto the barrier to fight for foul balls and create a disturbance or even fights. So those irresponsible people who changed the minds of Rangers' management to remove the barrier are also at fault, no?

 

I wonder how the situation would change if it was a rookie outfielder who was unlikely to stick in the majors. Or, if instead of a fireman's son, the man was the CEO of Enron (well, a similar company) or head of the Dr. Pepper Company. Would a rookie feel "less" responsibility being in less of a position to make restitution. Do we expect Josh Hamilton to be even more of a "hero" because that role has been thrust upon him....in a sense, he used (in cynic's eyes) his recovery from addiction and backstory to make himself even more popular and marketable, higher Q ratings, etc. Would it be different if he hadn't become a born-again Christian and never fired his (first) Jewish agent for being a non-believer?

 

Lots of deeper issues to consider here.

 

Can you imagine if something like this happened when Alex Rios tossed a ball at USCF, compared to Konerko or Buehrle?

 

The same barriers were in place at USCF, but idiot fans used them to crawl across so that they could jump down on to the field and run around.

[southsider2k5]

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/good-th...-about-baseball

 

http://livefromlawschool.blogspot.com/2008...amilton-do.html

 

I'm pretty sure Sosnick has written a book about this (his experience of becoming a sports agent)...and detailed the Hamilton situation there as well as on a blog online.

 

That is just messed up. That boy has definitely fried some brain cells.

[Quin]

Someone define "Christian stable". Did he want an agent who only had Christian clients?

[LittleHurt05]

Personal accountability doesn't exist in America.

 

That's the truth. This wasn't even a situation where there was nothing the fan could do to avoid the injury/death, like getting hit by a line drive or something. The guy made a personal decision to act recklessly just for a baseball, and it cost him his life.

[Balta1701]

That's the truth. This wasn't even a situation where there was nothing the fan could do to avoid the injury/death, like getting hit by a line drive or something. The guy made a personal decision to act recklessly just for a baseball, and it cost him his life.

Leaning against a railing within the legally permitted zone of a major league ballpark is not acting recklessly. If the Rangers didn't want people able to put the upper half of their body over that railing, then they needed a higher railing. Everyone here would have done the same thing.

[LittleHurt05]

Leaning against a railing within the legally permitted zone of a major league ballpark is not acting recklessly. If the Rangers didn't want people able to put the upper half of their body over that railing, then they needed a higher railing. Everyone here would have done the same thing.

 

Are you serious? That's absolutely false. I can guarantee you I wouldn't have (partly because I am scared of heights). There's ways to reach for a baseball without putting your whole upper body over the railing and losing control and falling. But of course, it's America, let's not hold someone personally responsible.

[Balta1701]

Are you serious? That's absolutely false. I can guarantee you I wouldn't have (partly because I am scared of heights). There's ways to reach for a baseball without putting your whole upper body over the railing and losing control and falling. But of course, it's America, let's not hold someone personally responsible.

Of course, it's America, let's let the big money entity which has a stadium with a flawed design entirely off the hook.

 

I'll give you a pass on the fear of heights thing, but I'd guarantee you I'd have done just about the same thing, and I'd bet a huge majority of baseball fans would have done the same. The ball was a little short, your brain is processing "If I don't reach for it, I miss the ball" during that split second. It's not processing the risk that fast, and it's not even realizing that its at risk until its too late.

[southsider2k5]

Are you serious? That's absolutely false. I can guarantee you I wouldn't have (partly because I am scared of heights). There's ways to reach for a baseball without putting your whole upper body over the railing and losing control and falling. But of course, it's America, let's not hold someone personally responsible.

 

I'm with you. My center of gravity is in the back of my mind anytime I lean over something.

[LittleHurt05]

Of course, it's America, let's let the big money entity which has a stadium with a flawed design entirely off the hook.

 

I'll give you a pass on the fear of heights thing, but I'd guarantee you I'd have done just about the same thing, and I'd bet a huge majority of baseball fans would have done the same. The ball was a little short, your brain is processing "If I don't reach for it, I miss the ball" during that split second. It's not processing the risk that fast, and it's not even realizing that its at risk until its too late.

 

I will agree that yes, the railings could probably be higher and safer, and that's probably the case in most MLB ballparks. The fan doesn't deserve all the blame. Improving the fan's experience often takes precedence over safety in designing these parks.

 

That being said, even if a majority of fans would have done the same thing, it still doesn't mean it wasn't reckless. You still have to be careful when hanging over a railing like that, it's not like that happens daily at all the various baseball stadiums all over the country.

[RockRaines]

Of course, it's America, let's let the big money entity which has a stadium with a flawed design entirely off the hook.

 

I'll give you a pass on the fear of heights thing, but I'd guarantee you I'd have done just about the same thing, and I'd bet a huge majority of baseball fans would have done the same. The ball was a little short, your brain is processing "If I don't reach for it, I miss the ball" during that split second. It's not processing the risk that fast, and it's not even realizing that its at risk until its too late.

AH jeez, I bet it was McDonald's fault when that dumbass lady burned herself with hot coffee. Sometimes stupidity is at fault.

[Balta1701]

I will agree that yes, the railings could probably be higher and safer, and that's probably the case in most MLB ballparks. The fan doesn't deserve all the blame. Improving the fan's experience often takes precedence over safety in designing these parks.

 

That being said, even if a majority of fans would have done the same thing, it still doesn't mean it wasn't reckless. You still have to be careful when hanging over a railing like that, it's not like that happens daily at all the various baseball stadiums all over the country.

A quality building inspector and a quality architectural design team will do everything possible to consider these one in a million safety events. It doesn't happen daily at the ballparks because you can design things better than that fence, and your inspectors make sure that ballparks do so.

 

If you have 100 fences that are designed poorly, you'll only run into the right set of circumstances once in a blue moon, but when the response is to scream "Personal responsibility!" as some sort of mantra lecturing the guy who did what a normal father would do, then we're really just accepting these events because it's the fan's fault.

[Balta1701]

AH jeez, I bet it was McDonald's fault when that dumbass lady burned herself with hot coffee.

100% yes. That still remains the single worst example you could possibly give in your case.

[southsider2k5]

I will agree that yes, the railings could probably be higher and safer, and that's probably the case in most MLB ballparks. The fan doesn't deserve all the blame. Improving the fan's experience often takes precedence over safety in designing these parks.

 

That being said, even if a majority of fans would have done the same thing, it still doesn't mean it wasn't reckless. You still have to be careful when hanging over a railing like that, it's not like that happens daily at all the various baseball stadiums all over the country.

 

To me there is a big difference between dangerous, and not idiot proof.

[bigruss]

The only real design flaw I saw there that one could, imo, legitimately claim is that there was no safety net in that opening between the stands/railing and the scoreboard/fence. That area should never have been left exposed like that.

[Balta1701]

To me there is a big difference between dangerous, and not idiot proof.

If you're building a facility to serve 20,000 people alcohol 81 times a year, idiot-proof must be the only goal.

[southsider2k5]

If you're building a facility to serve 20,000 people alcohol 81 times a year, idiot-proof must be the only goal.

 

You couldn't open an idiot proof stadium in Texas, because none of the state's residents could ever go to games.

[Balta1701]

The only real design flaw I saw there that one could, imo, legitimately claim is that there was no safety net in that opening between the stands/railing and the scoreboard/fence. That area should never have been left exposed like that.

A safety net isn't really the best answer there...there's a lot you could do with the railing itself. First of all it should have been taller, it's too easy for a person to put his or her center of mass well to the opposite side of the railing. Second, the horizontal bar configuration is a very poor design...a person or a kid can stand on the lower bar and push himself/herself farther out and into a more dangerous situation (I know I did that as a kid at amusement parks).

 

The right design is a railing tall enough that people can't genuinely lean over it with tightly spaced vertical bars in-between....but the one problem is that it would probably cost you a row of seats, since an effective fence would be in the way of the lowest row of seats, so you'd have to sacrifice some revenue to do the safety part correct.