Golfing Thread

[iamshack]

We should play sometime, we sound almost like the same golfer (both technique and in scoring), although I have somewhat fixed my wicked slice, and don't aim at houses anymore. Just more of a fade I can work with, and still trying to get better.

Yeah, the thing most people with a semi-large slice don't realize is that by aiming more and more to the left, they are actually increasing the depth of the slice/fade. Opening up your stance encourages more of an over-the-top swing, which imparts more sidespin as a result of the outside-in swing path.

 

Another great thing that has come out of the trackman is a greater understanding of ball flight laws. The data tells us (and this is somewhat up for debate still, but the data is pretty convincing) that if you impact the ball with a negative club path angle (outside to in) and have a club face angle open to that path angle, you are going to hit the ball with a fade or slice. The more you swing outside to in, the higher (the more negative) that club path angle gets, the more unlikely it is that you can hit the ball without slicing it because it becomes almost impossible to get the clubface more closed than the swing path angle is out-to-in.

 

So for example, say you have an open stance and aim approximately 10 yards left of the middle of the fairway, because you know your ball often fades from left to right. Your swing path is likely outside-to-in. Let's say it is -6 degrees. The ball is slicing because of two things: 1) Your outside-to-in swing path of -6 degrees, and 2) Your club face angle is open relative to the swing path angle of -6, even if it was still closed relative to where you are aiming. So your club face could actually be technically closed at impact, but it is still open to your swing path because of that big out-to-in motion. That is why it seems like sometimes no matter how far aim left, your ball just slices more and more and more.

 

To help correct this, you need to look at what the new ball flight laws are telling you about your ball flight and make adjustments.

 

To correct that slice, you need to get the club face angle somehow closed more than your out-to-in swing path. If you can get your swing more neutral, say, even a -2 degree out-to-in swing path, it is easier to get the club face closed relative to a smaller number than the larger number. However, i think the easier fix is to get the swing path to be more inside-to-out (a positive degree number) because club face angle is usually a matter of timing and hands and wrist movements. If you can, for instance, get into an in-to-out swing path of 3 or 4 degrees, you can leave that club face open relative to your target, but closed relative to your swing path, and therefore move the ball right to left. Even if you were to get the club face angle open as much as your swing path is in-to-out, you could hit the ball straight and have no slice.

 

A lot of tour players will hit power fades with their drivers. The way they are accomplishing this is with a slightly more open club face angle than their inside-to-out swing path angle. This allows one to still fade the ball but in a controlled manner.

Edited August 19, 2014 by iamshack

[IlliniKrush]

Yeah, the thing most people with a semi-large slice don't realize is that by aiming more and more to the left, they are actually increasing the depth of the slice/fade. Opening up your stance encourages more of an over-the-top swing, which imparts more sidespin as a result of the outside-in swing path.

 

Another great thing that has come out of the trackman is a greater understanding of ball flight laws. The data tells us (and this is somewhat up for debate still, but the data is pretty convincing) that where the ball starts is determined primarily by the club face angle at impact, but also somewhat by the swing path. Where the ball "curves" after the starting line or point is primarily a function of swing path. For several decades, the PGA believed the opposite. What this means is that the more you open your stance and encourage that outside to in swing path, the more and more the ball is going to spin right and fly right after the effects of the club face occur. If the ball is starting out at your initial target (well to the left), your club face angle is likely somewhat square in relation to your swing path. If it starts out to the left of even where you are initially aiming (left) then the club face is closed relative to your swing path. If it is starting out right of where you are initially aiming, then the club face angle is open relative to your swing path and so your ball is not only starting right of your target but then slicing right. This ultimately results in the slicing golfer continuing to exacerbate the problem by aiming more and more left.

 

To help correct this, you need to look at what the new ball flight laws are telling you about your ball flight and make adjustments.

 

Aim more at your ultimate target and focus on making an inside-out swing (think about swinging towards the second baseman if you are at home plate, for instance). This imparts leftward sidespin on the ball and results in the ball drawing. If your clubface is a little open relative to this inside-out swing path, you will start seeing the highly desirable "push-draw," where the ball starts out slightly right of your target and then draws back in line with it.

To your first point, I wouldn't change a thing. I'd just turn to the left, and "hit it straight", knowing what was going to happen. That's just where the ball would go no matter what. May as well turn.

 

Good info there, thanks for sharing. I've fixed it a good amount. I still have what I'd call a fade, not a slice though. I either aim straight, or only slightly left. Once in a while it will go straight. When I saw myself on video, I was swaying my hips front to back, it was awful. Didn't know I was doing it. Turning my hips has helped a lot. The other thing I need to work on is not casting the club, and doing your swing where it's inside to out. I try to do it, but I just don't think on the way down, I have the hang of keeping the club head inside that line they draw down to the ball when they do video analysis.

 

I also don't think I know how to turn my wrists correctly (which is part of the above problem) I feel like I should be holding the club "looser" but I probably hold it super tight and don't rotate the wrist/hands through to the other side.

 

A tip I saw the other day was when you get to the top, think of yourself pulling a light switch down to start your swing down.

 

I think a lot of my problems come from being a hockey player/baseball player and then trying to put a club in my hands. So I'm trying to unlearn certain motions I'm used to doing.

[iamshack]

To your first point, I wouldn't change a thing. I'd just turn to the left, and "hit it straight", knowing what was going to happen. That's just where the ball would go no matter what. May as well turn.

 

Good info there, thanks for sharing. I've fixed it a good amount. I still have what I'd call a fade, not a slice though. I either aim straight, or only slightly left. Once in a while it will go straight. When I saw myself on video, I was swaying my hips front to back, it was awful. Didn't know I was doing it. Turning my hips has helped a lot. The other thing I need to work on is not casting the club, and doing your swing where it's inside to out. I try to do it, but I just don't think on the way down, I have the hang of keeping the club head inside that line they draw down to the ball when they do video analysis.

 

I also don't think I know how to turn my wrists correctly (which is part of the above problem) I feel like I should be holding the club "looser" but I probably hold it super tight and don't rotate the wrist/hands through to the other side.

 

A tip I saw the other day was when you get to the top, think of yourself pulling a light switch down to start your swing down.

 

I think a lot of my problems come from being a hockey player/baseball player and then trying to put a club in my hands. So I'm trying to unlearn certain motions I'm used to doing.

Actually, I edited that post a lot because I think I stated some things incorrectly (this can be very confusing).

 

I'll try to address what you say here. which will likely make more sense now after editing the previous posts.

 

If you are fading the ball, and you turn and aim more left, that is fine...as long as you turn your entire body to aim left and don't just open up your stance by moving your left leg further left, which is what most people do. This is what causes that out-to-in swing path to get even more out-to-in. If you correctly aim left, what you'll do is keep your swing path the same and just ultimately "play the fade," and that's what a lot of pros do. There is nothing wrong with curving the ball left to right or right to left...the key is to do it every time, except when you don't want to.

 

As for your wrists, when you bring the club back, do you immediately begin cocking your wrists, or do you take the club back just with your shoulders and arms (otherwise known as a "one-piece" takeaway)? People who cock their wrists early tend to bring the club back inside and behind them quickly, which requires a big adjustment back to the outside when they make their downswing. This adjustment back to the outside often then causes the outside-to-inside or over the top move at impact. A one-piece takeaway allows you to take the club back "wide" and allows for a much easier transition from backswing to downswing.

 

What kind of grip do you use? Most of the time a grip directly impacts how you use your wrists. Also, as for grip pressure, do you wear a glove? If so, do you wear it out quickly? You basically want to grip the club just tightly enough so that you can control it...although I grip the club tightly too and I think that is because I started playing young with my dad's heavy blade irons and so it was sort of out of necessity

 

The light switch can be good or bad. It depends on how you interpret it. I have found that I hit the ball extremely well (especially with my irons) when I can start my downswing with my lower body and "pull the club down" through the weight transfer and rotation of my hips. This sort of drags the shoulders, then the arms, and then the club down and ensures that I don't get my arms and hands out ahead of my body (which happens when I start really pulling or hooking the ball). However, some people interpret "pulling a light switch" as starting the downswing with the arms, and that is not what you need to do. So it just depends on what swing thoughts work for you.

 

Hockey players are actually normally pretty good golfers, honestly. But I know that when I was playing baseball at the same time as golf, I often struggled.

[IlliniKrush]

I used to turn both my feet to the left, and hit normal, not just open up. Glad I don't have to do that anymore. Once in a while I'll slice one badly but right now it's usually a consistent fade, which is workable and doesn't require me to aim way left. A little left, like you said, is fine.

 

I'm pretty sure I turn my wrists as soon as I take the club away.

 

For grips, well, I've never really thought about it. Since I just "seriously" got into golf 2 years ago (hadn't played in years before that), I only have a Wilson starter set and a few other clubs, with whatever normal grips come on them.

 

I do wear a glove on my left hand. I do grip the club pretty tight, I know I need to work on that a bit.

 

I don't have a lot of distance, but I'm not a big guy anyway. I sort of understand why hips and lower body etc. matter, but I feel like all my swing comes from my arms, maybe? Anyway, I'm not really concerned YET about crazy distance, first thing is just hitting the ball straighter.

 

In a few years, I will get better clubs, but no need to drop thousands when I'm still trying to rapidly improve the game. I know new clubs isn't a quick fix for swing issues.

[RockRaines]

I used to turn both my feet to the left, and hit normal, not just open up. Glad I don't have to do that anymore. Once in a while I'll slice one badly but right now it's usually a consistent fade, which is workable and doesn't require me to aim way left. A little left, like you said, is fine.

 

I'm pretty sure I turn my wrists as soon as I take the club away.

 

For grips, well, I've never really thought about it. Since I just "seriously" got into golf 2 years ago (hadn't played in years before that), I only have a Wilson starter set and a few other clubs, with whatever normal grips come on them.

 

I do wear a glove on my left hand. I do grip the club pretty tight, I know I need to work on that a bit.

 

I don't have a lot of distance, but I'm not a big guy anyway. I sort of understand why hips and lower body etc. matter, but I feel like all my swing comes from my arms, maybe? Anyway, I'm not really concerned YET about crazy distance, first thing is just hitting the ball straighter.

 

In a few years, I will get better clubs, but no need to drop thousands when I'm still trying to rapidly improve the game. I know new clubs isn't a quick fix for swing issues.

You're tall enough where you could be a very long hitter. Also with hockey experience you have the muscle memory to lag and flip your wrists.

[BigHurt3515]

How many holes would you say you had putts for par on?

 

Probably 4 or 5.. They weren't short putts, shortest probably being 8 or so feet.

[BigHurt3515]

We should play sometime, we sound almost like the same golfer (both technique and in scoring), although I have somewhat fixed my wicked slice, and don't aim at houses anymore. Just more of a fade I can work with, and still trying to get better.

 

If I wasn't stuck in Missouri I would play with you lol.

 

I think if I played more I could eventually fix the slice just like you did but I just haven't played enough. Even when I go to the driving range and try to aim straight and keep my body and feet straight I still get a massive slice. Like what you said in a post above, I just face to left like I am trying to hit it there and it slices no matter what.

[IlliniKrush]

If I wasn't stuck in Missouri I would play with you lol.

 

I think if I played more I could eventually fix the slice just like you did but I just haven't played enough. Even when I go to the driving range and try to aim straight and keep my body and feet straight I still get a massive slice. Like what you said in a post above, I just face to left like I am trying to hit it there and it slices no matter what.

My advice, take a lesson. Even if it's just one. They can give you 1-3 easy things to think about/work on. One of my big ones was the hips. Now I think about it, turn instead of sway a ton, and it fixed a lot of it. I never would have known to focus on that. I never saw myself swing, if that makes sense. Putting a few things on video was good.

[iamshack]

I used to turn both my feet to the left, and hit normal, not just open up. Glad I don't have to do that anymore. Once in a while I'll slice one badly but right now it's usually a consistent fade, which is workable and doesn't require me to aim way left. A little left, like you said, is fine.

 

I'm pretty sure I turn my wrists as soon as I take the club away.

 

For grips, well, I've never really thought about it. Since I just "seriously" got into golf 2 years ago (hadn't played in years before that), I only have a Wilson starter set and a few other clubs, with whatever normal grips come on them.

 

I do wear a glove on my left hand. I do grip the club pretty tight, I know I need to work on that a bit.

 

I don't have a lot of distance, but I'm not a big guy anyway. I sort of understand why hips and lower body etc. matter, but I feel like all my swing comes from my arms, maybe? Anyway, I'm not really concerned YET about crazy distance, first thing is just hitting the ball straighter.

 

In a few years, I will get better clubs, but no need to drop thousands when I'm still trying to rapidly improve the game. I know new clubs isn't a quick fix for swing issues.

When I said what kind of grip, I meant the way you grip the club with your hands...not the type of grips physically on your club. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Like I was saying a few days ago with Rock...it's certainly very tough to diagnose from descriptions...especially since most golfers don't really know what they are doing anyways...

 

As for clubs...you certainly don't need to drop thousands...if you do intend on getting "serious" about it, I would advise investing in a better set of irons...then you can add to your set with a driver, putter, wedges, fairway woods as you see fit. You can get a pretty good set of used irons usually for $400-500, if that is more appealing to you...the one catch is that they should "fit" you. Rock mentioned you were "tall enough" to hit the ball a long ways...how tall are you?

 

What club do you normally use if you are 150 yards from the green?

[iamshack]

My advice, take a lesson. Even if it's just one. They can give you 1-3 easy things to think about/work on. One of my big ones was the hips. Now I think about it, turn instead of sway a ton, and it fixed a lot of it. I never would have known to focus on that. I never saw myself swing, if that makes sense. Putting a few things on video was good.

Yeah, there is an app called v1 golf that you can use to watch your swing in slo-mo and draw all kinds of lines and angles on the screen to see some of these things in your swing.

 

Lateral movement isn't all bad, since it helps transfer weight, but a big sway will usually cause you to have weight transfer issues (often times people who sway are reverse pivoting) and consistent contact issues. What you said is exactly correct - you need hip rotation more so than lateral hip movement. The rotation of your hips against your legs causes tension, and rotation of your shoulders against your hips causes even more tension...this allows you to uncoil and generate clubhead speed. When you don't have any of this rotation you tend to try to generate clubhead speed with your arms, which usually causes the over-the-top motion and as a result, the slice.

[RockRaines]

When I said what kind of grip, I meant the way you grip the club with your hands...not the type of grips physically on your club. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Like I was saying a few days ago with Rock...it's certainly very tough to diagnose from descriptions...especially since most golfers don't really know what they are doing anyways...

 

As for clubs...you certainly don't need to drop thousands...if you do intend on getting "serious" about it, I would advise investing in a better set of irons...then you can add to your set with a driver, putter, wedges, fairway woods as you see fit. You can get a pretty good set of used irons usually for $400-500, if that is more appealing to you...the one catch is that they should "fit" you. Rock mentioned you were "tall enough" to hit the ball a long ways...how tall are you?

 

What club do you normally use if you are 150 yards from the green?

He's tall, I bet he's a classic case of needing custom fit clubs as well. My new irons are night and day better than my off the racks which allows to me swing more naturally. I've played 8 rounds since the purchase and the shot quality is much better.

[iamshack]

If I wasn't stuck in Missouri I would play with you lol.

 

I think if I played more I could eventually fix the slice just like you did but I just haven't played enough. Even when I go to the driving range and try to aim straight and keep my body and feet straight I still get a massive slice. Like what you said in a post above, I just face to left like I am trying to hit it there and it slices no matter what.

I think it is important that we get on the same page regarding terminology.

 

So most people who slice/fade the ball do one of three things:

 

1) Pull Fade/Slice

2) Push Fade/Slice

3) Over-the-Top Fade/Slice

 

The Pull Fade/Slice starts out left of your target and fades back to your target or right of your target. This occurs when your swing path is outside to inside and your club face angle is open relative to your swing path but closed relative to your target. Thus, it starts out left (the pull) of your target and fades back to your target or beyond (the fade/slice).

 

The Push Fade/Slice starts out right of your target and fades even more to the right of your target. This occurs when your swing path is outside to inside somewhat and your club face angle is open both relative to your swing path and the target. Thus, is starts out right (the push) of your target and fades further away from your target (the fade/slice).

 

The Over-the-Top Fade/Slice is probably the most common. This is when your swing path is wayyy outside to inside and and your club face angle is fairly square to your target but still open to that big swing path. The ball starts out on target but then quickly takes a big right hand turn due to the swing path.

 

Which do you guys struggle with?

[IlliniKrush]

When I said what kind of grip, I meant the way you grip the club with your hands...not the type of grips physically on your club. Sorry for the confusion.

 

Like I was saying a few days ago with Rock...it's certainly very tough to diagnose from descriptions...especially since most golfers don't really know what they are doing anyways...

 

As for clubs...you certainly don't need to drop thousands...if you do intend on getting "serious" about it, I would advise investing in a better set of irons...then you can add to your set with a driver, putter, wedges, fairway woods as you see fit. You can get a pretty good set of used irons usually for $400-500, if that is more appealing to you...the one catch is that they should "fit" you. Rock mentioned you were "tall enough" to hit the ball a long ways...how tall are you?

 

What club do you normally use if you are 150 yards from the green?

I totally read that wrong, as I know guys have different grips etc. actually on the club itself. I've been messing around with the grip. For my driver, it's almost a baseball grip, which I know shouldn't be happening, but I've had best results with it. Irons I try to have the overlap, if that's what you call it, try to put the thumb on the top of the grip. Not the interlock. Is interlock better though? I've tried some shots here and there with it, I should experiment more with it.

 

I'm 5'9-5'10, I'm no Rock in terms of height.

 

If I'm 150 out, I'm likely hitting a 3 or 4 iron, and probably not reaching the green. May even hit a 4 hybrid.

 

I need a 2/3 hybrid, or something of the sort, so I can get further when going up the fairway. Even if my weak ass drive goes 175 somewhat straight, I still have a long ways to go on most holes. I'm not reaching it in 2. I have reached in 3 with putts for par here and there, which is exciting (never make them though as they are usually from far out).

 

I also need to measure exactly how long each of my irons go (if hit correctly). I have an idea, but right now I play the ol "looks like a 7" and go and hit it.

[IlliniKrush]

The Over-the-Top Fade/Slice is probably the most common. This is when your swing path is wayyy outside to inside and and your club face angle is fairly square to your target but still open to that big swing path. The ball starts out on target but then quickly takes a big right hand turn due to the swing path.

 

Which do you guys struggle with?

It sounds like this guy. It's usually a quick, then longgggggg fade back, when it's bad. But I've gotten rid of most of those. Maybe I'm closer to your first one now that I have changed my swing a bit.

[RockRaines]

I totally read that wrong, as I know guys have different grips etc. actually on the club itself. I've been messing around with the grip. For my driver, it's almost a baseball grip, which I know shouldn't be happening, but I've had best results with it. Irons I try to have the overlap, if that's what you call it, try to put the thumb on the top of the grip. Not the interlock. Is interlock better though? I've tried some shots here and there with it, I should experiment more with it.

 

I'm 5'9-5'10, I'm no Rock in terms of height.

 

If I'm 150 out, I'm likely hitting a 3 or 4 iron, and probably not reaching the green. May even hit a 4 hybrid.

 

I need a 2/3 hybrid, or something of the sort, so I can get further when going up the fairway. Even if my weak ass drive goes 175 somewhat straight, I still have a long ways to go on most holes. I'm not reaching it in 2. I have reached in 3 with putts for par here and there, which is exciting (never make them though as they are usually from far out).

 

I also need to measure exactly how long each of my irons go (if hit correctly). I have an idea, but right now I play the ol "looks like a 7" and go and hit it.

Man, I bet I could get it to where you could half swing and get it that far. I am an 8 or a 9 iron from 150 with a smooth swing.

[iamshack]

Man, I bet I could get it to where you could half swing and get it that far. I am an 8 or a 9 iron from 150 with a smooth swing.

Yeah, something is not right...either he almost never makes good contact or he needs new clubs.

[IlliniKrush]

Yeah, something is not right...either he almost never makes good contact or he needs new clubs.

I think contact is OK most of the time, just not a ton of power. Although, my actual 3 and 4 irons are old Rams from my dad's set. The set I have has a 4 hybrid which goes further for sure, I just need to learn to hit it better.

[RockRaines]

I think contact is OK most of the time, just not a ton of power. Although, my actual 3 and 4 irons are old Rams from my dad's set. The set I have has a 4 hybrid which goes further for sure, I just need to learn to hit it better.

You must really be cutting and lifting across the ball. If you were compacting it with an iron it should go a lot farther than what you are doing today. Just the type of student a teacher would love. Someone who is an athlete and really hasnt begun striking the ball yet.

[iamshack]

I think contact is OK most of the time, just not a ton of power. Although, my actual 3 and 4 irons are old Rams from my dad's set. The set I have has a 4 hybrid which goes further for sure, I just need to learn to hit it better.

Are they "Golden Rams"?

 

You should go into a Golf Galaxy or something under the premise of being interested in some irons to see what your swing speed is with a 7-iron. I'd be interested to see that.

[IlliniKrush]

Are they "Golden Rams"?

 

You should go into a Golf Galaxy or something under the premise of being interested in some irons to see what your swing speed is with a 7-iron. I'd be interested to see that.

I don't believe so. They look like "standard ass Rams."

 

Alright, I'll keep that in mind and see if I can get that done within the next few weeks.

[iamshack]

I don't believe so. They look like "standard ass Rams."

 

Alright, I'll keep that in mind and see if I can get that done within the next few weeks.

Generally, irons these days are going to be a club stronger, but yeah, I generally hit a club equivalent to your 3-iron about 210-215 yards. I hit a club equivalent to your 8 iron 145 yards.

[RockRaines]

Generally, irons these days are going to be a club stronger, but yeah, I generally hit a club equivalent to your 3-iron about 210-215 yards. I hit a club equivalent to your 8 iron 145 yards.

My 3 hybrid is 240 and 3 iron3 is around 225 -230.

 

My distances only starting getting better the last several years when I started really striking the ball. Back in the day my 150 club was a hard 7 iron which is now around 170-175

[iamshack]

My 3 hybrid is 240 and 3 iron3 is around 225 -230.

 

My distances only starting getting better the last several years when I started really striking the ball. Back in the day my 150 club was a hard 7 iron which is now around 170-175

 

Keep in mind that your 7-iron from back then was likely 38-degrees. Today, your 7-iron is probably 34-degrees.

[RockRaines]

Keep in mind that your 7-iron from back then was likely 38-degrees. Today, your 7-iron is probably 34-degrees.

Callaway hawkeyes arent that old are they?

[iamshack]

Callaway hawkeyes arent that old are they?

Not sure...for instance, your i25's are strong...33 degree 7-iron...ping eye 2 7-irons were 36 degrees....my titleist ap2 7-iron is 34.

 

The iron number means nothing...the loft is the number that matters...a lot of pros have iron sets with loft numbers on them and not traditional iron numbers.

Edited August 19, 2014 by iamshack