ILMOU Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) Sometimes a manager just needs to move on because, as noted above, the players just aren't responding the way you'd hope. It's rare, but a change sometimes DOES turn a team around. It happened just two years ago here in Colorado. Clint Hurdle was obviously such a horrendous manager and Jim Tracy such a genius that we see today why their respective teams are headed in opposite directions. Except it's the other way around. My point is that a new voice, coupled with a healthy dose of guilt, can be strong motivation in the short term. And F it, heads need to be a rollin' Edited July 11, 2011 by Stan Bahnsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 07:15 PM) So you think he should manage here indefinitely? I mean what scenario could you see him getting fired over if this isn't it? I believe that too much emphasis is being placed on the manager being responsible for the poor performance of people like Rios and Dunn and injuries to players like Peavy. It is player performance that is the problem not the manager (but that's my opinion). We might need a shake up with a trade or two and I most certainly would like to have Viciedo up with the team, but he needs a place to play. DH or the OF and heck maybe even 3B again. I think we have players playing out of position and too many at one. Teahan, Morel and Vizquel at 3B and then Teahan vying for time in LF and RF and 1B. Versatility is great, but a player who was a full-time guy is now relegated to a part time role. Hard to keep sharp. Dunn playing as a DH and he has never done that before. And of course it seems everyone was slumping at the same time except Konerko and maybe AJP. I know the clamor is for some kind of change, but change could come with players hitting, pitching and running and fielding like they are supposed to and not firing the manager. We are only 5 out (somehow) and we are in this divisional race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 02:25 PM) I believe that too much emphasis is being placed on the manager being responsible for the poor performance of people like Rios and Dunn and injuries to players like Peavy. It is player performance that is the problem not the manager (but that's my opinion). We might need a shake up with a trade or two and I most certainly would like to have Viciedo up with the team, but he needs a place to play. DH or the OF and heck maybe even 3B again. I think we have players playing out of position and too many at one. Teahan, Morel and Vizquel at 3B and then Teahan vying for time in LF and RF and 1B. Versatility is great, but a player who was a full-time guy is now relegated to a part time role. Hard to keep sharp. Dunn playing as a DH and he has never done that before. And of course it seems everyone was slumping at the same time except Konerko and maybe AJP. I know the clamor is for some kind of change, but change could come with players hitting, pitching and running and fielding like they are supposed to and not firing the manager. We are only 5 out (somehow) and we are in this divisional race. You didn't answer his question. What needs to happen for you to support a manager (particularly Ozzie) being fired? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I think Ozzie should get until the end of this season and should be fired if this team does not make the playoffs. I think he has earned that with the success he has had. If the team makes the playoffs, Ozzie should stay, even if it's an 83-79 playoff team that gets swept. It would be very hard to fire a manager who had won 3 division titles in 8 seasons. I think his individual successes in motivating players and intangibles have been underemphasized in light on focusing on only the bad in-game decisions, and it's been amplified this season to the nth degree. I agree that the players have underperformed and that has been the crucial problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 03:00 PM) I think Ozzie should get until the end of this season and should be fired if this team does not make the playoffs. I think he has earned that with the success he has had. If the team makes the playoffs, Ozzie should stay, even if it's an 83-79 playoff team that gets swept. It would be very hard to fire a manager who had won 3 division titles in 8 seasons. I think his individual successes in motivating players and intangibles have been underemphasized in light on focusing on only the bad in-game decisions, and it's been amplified this season to the nth degree. I agree that the players have underperformed and that has been the crucial problem. My stomach turns to even read that. What you said is exactly what would happen, and that's unfortunate. It's my biggest fear at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Winning the division would require us figuring out a way to beat the Twins. Provided Ozzie could fanagle that, I think there would be SOME reason for optimism going forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Did soxtalk just go super weird for anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 03:05 PM) Winning the division would require us figuring out a way to beat the Twins. Provided Ozzie could fanagle that, I think there would be SOME reason for optimism going forward. I'm of the opinion that Ozzie's act is done here and that nothing is going to change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 03:11 PM) I'm of the opinion that Ozzie's act is done here and that nothing is going to change that. I understand that. If he figures out a way to win this division with the state that the team is currently in, it would be a miracle that would warrant future consideration, as much as that pains you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHITESOXRANDY Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 If Ozzie is fired Chicago will be a whole lot quieter. Maybe my ears will hurt less. But, the team won't be any better. Now, if KW were to get canned, and the right guy brought in to run this organization things might change for the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 02:24 PM) Sometimes a manager just needs to move on because, as noted above, the players just aren't responding the way you'd hope. You could always start with the f***ing hitting coach, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 03:13 PM) I understand that. If he figures out a way to win this division with the state that the team is currently in, it would be a miracle that would warrant future consideration, as much as that pains you I don't think it would be a miracle. It would just be a bunch of terrible teams with one team being slightly less bad than the others. I don't believe it would warrant future consideration at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 02:19 PM) You could always start with the f***ing hitting coach, too. No objections. The only thing that will really p*** me off for the next few days is nothing. Edited July 11, 2011 by Stan Bahnsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Call me stupid or easily sated, but I was somehow conditioned to enjoy division titles for what they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 03:37 PM) Call me stupid or easily sated, but I was somehow conditioned to enjoy division titles for what they are. If one doesn't enjoy winning the division than I would question their fandom. But at the same time, winning a division shouldn't blind oneself from the weaknesses of the team nor the environment that they won in. Once your season is done, it's done. The organization needs to move on quickly and keep assessing what they do well, where they need to improve, and what they can feasibly accomplish to put themselves in the best position to win in the next season. Keeping Ozzie, even if we win the division this year, may not be the best choice for the team to compete next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 07:55 PM) You didn't answer his question. What needs to happen for you to support a manager (particularly Ozzie) being fired? To hear his players say they lost faith in him as the manager Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 03:44 PM) To hear his players say they lost faith in him as the manager Seeing that I've never seen a team publicly state that about a manager, Ozzie would be here until he retired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 03:44 PM) To hear his players say they lost faith in him as the manager That is utterly ridiculous. By that standard basically no coaches or managers would ever be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 08:48 PM) That is utterly ridiculous. By that standard basically no coaches or managers would ever be fired. I was asked my opinion and I gave it. Sorry it doesn't match yours. It isn't ridiculous IMO but I could say all this clamoring and such to blame someone is a bit old and getting ridiculous in the extremes people want to go. The manager always gets the blame and gets fired when the players fail to perform. I guess it is easier to fire a manager then a player making $16M a year. Doesn't mean it's right and doesn't mean it will make anyone play better either with the manager getting fired. But, that seems to be the only answer folks have ' FIRE OZZIE." If you make mention of a possible trade or of a player that should be singled out and you then hear all kinds of reasons why that can't be done. All this has become is a gigantic gripe session with fingers getting pointed everywhere. But, I still haven't heard how this idea of firing the manager or the hitting coach or the first base coach is going to help the team win. I think Ozzie is moving from protecting the players mode to lighting a fire under some people as it should be. He had called out Rios and that's one of the guys performing well below expectations. I refuse to believe this team can't get back on track during the second half. We have the talent to go on a winning streak. We are maybe one good stretch away from being on top. That's how I see it. If others don't fine, but don't call the positive comments ridiculous, etc, etc. I won't deny things have been bad and we find some new way to lose almost every day it seems. But, we have some darn good talent of this team and they have won before. They can motivate each other and I am loking forward to seeing them drive on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 08:45 PM) Seeing that I've never seen a team publicly state that about a manager, Ozzie would be here until he retired. I am only talking Ozzie here. He seems to have the respect of his players Edited July 11, 2011 by elrockinMT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 04:10 PM) I am only talking Ozzie here. He seems to have the respect of his players But that doesn't mean he isn't bad at his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 09:13 PM) But that doesn't mean he isn't bad at his job. I know there is debate there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chetkincaid Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 02:24 PM) Sometimes a manager just needs to move on because, as noted above, the players just aren't responding the way you'd hope. It's rare, but a change sometimes DOES turn a team around. It happened just two years ago here in Colorado. Clint Hurdle was obviously such a horrendous manager and Jim Tracy such a genius that we see today why their respective teams are headed in opposite directions. Except it's the other way around. My point is that a new voice, coupled with a healthy dose of guilt, can be strong motivation in the short term. And F it, heads need to be a rollin' Chris Rongey disagrees with you. As a matter of fact, he probably thinks you're an idiot for thinking that way. As much as I like Ozzie, I, like most of the people here, agree with you. Sometimes you just need a fresh approach or a fresh voice. Ozzie seems tired and his players are probably just as tired of him too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I'm sure our players like Ozzie, but I don't know if they respond to his tactics very well anymore. You'll see quotes by Konerko saying "that's just Ozzie being Ozzie". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleCoastBias Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Jul 11, 2011 -> 04:53 PM) Chris Rongey disagrees with you. As a matter of fact, he probably thinks you're an idiot for thinking that way. As much as I like Ozzie, I, like most of the people here, agree with you. Sometimes you just need a fresh approach or a fresh voice. Ozzie seems tired and his players are probably just as tired of him too. Speaking of whom, has anyone else noticed the Ranger hasn't posted here since maybe mid-April...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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