The official "end of Ozzie soon?" thread

[RockRaines]

In Ken Griffey Jr. Presents Major League Baseball, the only lineup change I ever make is taking out Guillen and putting in the Little Hurt. Every time.

+1. Ozzie is god-awful in that game. Karko is a beast though.

[Balta1701]

I won't comment on this anymore, but I can't believe Soxtalker's have buried Ozzie the player.

Amazing.

He'd actually probably get a fair amount of props if he played right now, because of how defensive metrics are looking at people, but teams would be strugglingly mightily to cover up for his bats.

[RockRaines]

He'd actually probably get a fair amount of props if he played right now, because of how defensive metrics are looking at people, but teams would be strugglingly mightily to cover up for his bats.

I dont know, he would essentially be Adam Everett.

[Balta1701]

I dont know, he would essentially be Adam Everett.

Adam Everett when he was a starter with the Astros was a >2 WAR a year player from 2003-2006, basically worth $6-$8 mil in that parlance. As long as they had guys like BGO, Bagwell, Berkman, and (WTF?) Ensberg putting up big numbers with the bats, Everett was an ideal guy to stick in at SS.

[shlammajamma]

I won't comment on this anymore, but I can't believe Soxtalker's have buried Ozzie the player.

Amazing.

Dude, you infatuation with Ozzie may be worse than Ozzie's infatuation with Juan Pierre. His stats are GOD awful, yet you discredit them and use gold gloves and all-star appearances to back up the notion that he is a good player?

Amazing.

[caulfield12]

Well, those Ozzie offensive statistics were also put up in a totally different era.

 

And, the Old Comiskey Park was not exactly "Home Run Central," not that Ozzie ever was a power hitter.

 

He's one of those players who would have fit in any era...and certainly in the first 5-7 years, he had the added dimension of hitting for more triples and piling up some decent stolen base numbers.

 

Ozzie Smith is another player (and Ozzie wasn't quite his caliber defensively, of course) who put up very average offensive numbers. Or Omar Vizquel, although Ozzie wasn't his equal with the glove either. You have to look at the position, and what his peers did. And that's where Ripken's power and RBI's shined, although he never had the range of the great shortstops, obviously.

 

Things changed when Jeter came into the AL in the mid 90's. Then you had that offensive (steroids too) explosion at the position with Jeter, Garciaparra, Miguel Tejada and Alex Rodriguez all putting up MVP numbers.

Edited July 13, 2011 by caulfield12

[fathom]

Well, those Ozzie offensive statistics were also put up in a totally different era.

 

And, the Old Comiskey Park was not exactly "Home Run Central," not that Ozzie ever was a power hitter.

 

He's one of those players who would have fit in any era...and certainly in the first 5-7 years, he had the added dimension of hitting for more triples and piling up some decent stolen base numbers.

 

Much like Juan Pierre, I'm sure hitting in a big park benefitted Ozzie more than hitting at the Cell with the narrow gaps and outfielders that can play shallow.

[caulfield12]

Yeah....Juan Pierre has that Luis Polonia stroke to LF and how many balls have outfielders just been parked there waiting when the ball off the bat looked like a sure double? You can't afford to play THAT shallow (and right on the line) in a much bigger outfield unless Willie Mays in his prime is playing CF.

 

Of course, Pierre's never succeeded (at least I can't think of a time) in plugging that LCF gap.

 

When he hits the ball hard to the outfield, it's always a pitch he turns on and pulls right down the RF line or foul to right.

[RockRaines]

Adam Everett when he was a starter with the Astros was a >2 WAR a year player from 2003-2006, basically worth $6-$8 mil in that parlance. As long as they had guys like BGO, Bagwell, Berkman, and (WTF?) Ensberg putting up big numbers with the bats, Everett was an ideal guy to stick in at SS.

Thats kinda what Ozzie was.

[caulfield12]

Thats kinda what Ozzie was.

 

 

How many All-Star teams has Adam Everett made?

[Kalapse]

He's one of those players who would have fit in any era...and certainly in the first 5-7 years, he had the added dimension of hitting for more triples and piling up some decent stolen base numbers

I'm not sure a career 61% SB% is something to brag about, the year he garnered MVP votes he stole 13 bases and was caught 17 times.

 

Looking at decades: From '85 to '89 17 players had at least 2000 PA and played primarily SS, Ozzie had the lowest OPS+ of the 17. http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-ind...re.cgi?id=brhkI

 

From '90 to '97 (I wanted to go '90 to '95 but that would seem like I was being cruel to Oz since '95 was a particularly bad season at the plate) 15 players had at least 3000 PA and played primarily SS, Ozzie was second to last in OPS+ out of that group, he also had a 53% SB% in 117 attempts during this span. http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-ind...re.cgi?id=quTwL

 

I'm sure his glove was terrific but there's really no denying that Ozzie brought very little on the offensive end, mediocre AVG, miniscule ISO, no walks, brutal SB%.

[BigEdWalsh]

Good glove, no bat. He was one of the worst hitters i have ever seen and the worst on a good baseball team that didnt need his bat. You had guys like Tim Raines, Robin Ventura, Frank Thomas, Carlton Fisk, Lance Johnson, Ellis Burks, Karko,Julio Franco, etc all hitting in a lineup where he wasnt needed at the time. He was all Glove and still was replaced at times by guys like Steve Sax.

You make it sound like he was Eddie Brinkman. He was a light hitter and free swinger but the worst he hit as a regular was .265. That would hardly rank him as a terrible hitter, "one of the worst hitters ever".

[Dick Allen]

You make it sound like he was Eddie Brinkman. He was a light hitter and free swinger but the worst he hit as a regular was .265. That would hardly rank him as a terrible hitter, "one of the worst hitters ever".

He had no power and didn't walk at all. He wasn't much with the stick, but he did seem to come through in big situations.

[caulfield12]

He had no power and didn't walk at all. He wasn't much with the stick, but he did seem to come through in big situations.

 

 

I thought you were talking about Howard Marshall, Anna Nicole Smith's ex-husband.

[Dick Allen]

I thought you were talking about Howard Marshall, Anna Nicole Smith's ex-husband.

That's bad. Funny, but bad.

[Kalapse]

You make it sound like he was Eddie Brinkman. He was a light hitter and free swinger but the worst he hit as a regular was .265. That would hardly rank him as a terrible hitter, "one of the worst hitters ever".

Except for the 4 or 5 times he did hit below .265 as a regular?

 

For a regular .265 (his career AVG with the Sox) is bad it becomes terrible -- for a regular -- when that .265 is almost entirely singles and comes with a 3% walk rate. 81 players had at least 5000 PA between '85 and '97, Ozzie had the lowest OPS+ of the bunch by a good amount and that .265 AVG places him 60th out of the 81. Lower it to 4000 PA and he's last out of 151 players (Frank Thomas is #1).

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-ind...re.cgi?id=ugBTT - 5000 PA

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-ind...re.cgi?id=o32pC - 4000 PA

[caulfield12]

Cue Greg speech comparing Ozzie Guillen as a player to Juan Pierre...and how almost everyone on the White Sox team except for Konerko and AJ has a lower batting average.

 

I do remember assiduously keeping track of the White Sox stats with a handheld calculator, piece of paper and box score and recall that usually our team batting average in that time period ranged from probably low .240's to high .250's (before the arrival of Thomas, Ventura and Sosa).

 

1985

GUILLEN 273

SOX AVG 253

 

1986

GUILLEN 250

SOX AVG 247

 

1987

GUILLEN 279

SOX AVG 258

 

1988

GUILLEN 261

SOX AVG 244

Edited July 14, 2011 by caulfield12

[chw42]

Cue Greg speech comparing Ozzie Guillen as a player to Juan Pierre...and how almost everyone on the White Sox team except for Konerko and AJ has a lower batting average.

 

I do remember assiduously keeping track of the White Sox stats with a handheld calculator, piece of paper and box score and recall that usually our team batting average in that time period ranged from probably low .240's to high .250's (before the arrival of Thomas, Ventura and Sosa).

 

1985

GUILLEN 273

SOX AVG 253

 

1986

GUILLEN 250

SOX AVG 247

 

1987

GUILLEN 279

SOX AVG 258

 

1988

GUILLEN 261

SOX AVG 244

 

Here's the problem, how low was Ozzie's OBP in all of those years?

[chw42]

Except for the 4 or 5 times he did hit below .265 as a regular?

 

For a regular .265 (his career AVG with the Sox) is bad it becomes terrible -- for a regular -- when that .265 is almost entirely singles and comes with a 3% walk rate. 81 players had at least 5000 PA between '85 and '97, Ozzie had the lowest OPS+ of the bunch by a good amount and that .265 AVG places him 60th out of the 81. Lower it to 4000 PA and he's last out of 151 players (Frank Thomas is #1).

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-ind...re.cgi?id=ugBTT - 5000 PA

http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-ind...re.cgi?id=o32pC - 4000 PA

 

Ozzie's bat was worth -271 runs during his entire career (65 wRC+), according to FanGraphs. That's like -28 wins, depending on the run environment.

Edited July 14, 2011 by chw42

[Steve9347]

Here's the problem, how low was Ozzie's OBP in all of those years?

The All Star Break in a bad season is hilarious. Everyone take a moment and realize what you are arguing about.

[chw42]

The All Star Break in a bad season is hilarious. Everyone take a moment and realize what you are arguing about.

 

I don't think anybody thinks Ozzie was a good offensive player. Nothing to really argue about. People might disagree on how much he really sucked, but I think the fact that he sucked is enough.

[greg775]

Cue Greg speech comparing Ozzie Guillen as a player to Juan Pierre...and how almost everyone on the White Sox team except for Konerko and AJ has a lower batting average.

 

I do remember assiduously keeping track of the White Sox stats with a handheld calculator, piece of paper and box score and recall that usually our team batting average in that time period ranged from probably low .240's to high .250's (before the arrival of Thomas, Ventura and Sosa).

 

1985

GUILLEN 273

SOX AVG 253

 

1986

GUILLEN 250

SOX AVG 247

 

1987

GUILLEN 279

SOX AVG 258

 

1988

GUILLEN 261

SOX AVG 244

 

No Greg speech. I said I'm done commenting on this. I am sad though that a White Sox board has denegraded Ozzie to being a bad baseball player.

[shlammajamma]

No Greg speech. I said I'm done commenting on this. I am sad though that a White Sox board has denegraded Ozzie to being a bad baseball player.

Greg, if Alex Rios put up the numbers Ozzie Guillen did, would you say he was a good baseball player?

Edited July 14, 2011 by shlammajamma

[southsider2k5]

If someone offered "too good of a deal to be true" then wouldn't anyone have to pull the trigger? I mean, if the Dodgers offered you Kershaw and Kemp for Viciedo...would you say no? Come up with your own fantasy there, if it's "Too good to be true"...no one will be mad.

 

The worry is that KW will do something like Viciedo for Beltran, which would be a bad, bad, bad deal that might make the team slightly better this season.

 

He is just operating with some level of reality...

[chw42]

No Greg speech. I said I'm done commenting on this. I am sad though that a White Sox board has denegraded Ozzie to being a bad baseball player.

 

I don't think he was bad at baseball, he just sucked at hitting. He had a couple of very good seasons with the Sox despite hitting worse than Juan Pierre.