The official "end of Ozzie soon?" thread

[greg775]

Right now he's playing for time. There's little downside to waiting another week or so, the deadline is 2.5 weeks away, if someone is offering talent for one of your players it's unlikely that their offer will decrease as the deadline approaches unless there is a better player on the market (and very few teams are selling pitching).

 

If we are really a contender there's great downside to waiting another week or 2.

A Detroit sweep pretty much ends our season.

Eight out. We ain't making that up against a Leyland team.

[caulfield12]

Unless KW really surprises everyone and starts taking offers on John Danks beginning today.

 

But is is reasonable to expect anyone (other than KW's "twin") would take him until he makes at least one successful MLB start though coming off the oblique?

 

Who are the other starters out there on the market right now, besides Edwin? D. Lowe? Rich Harden? Capuano?

[southsider2k5]

If we are really a contender there's great downside to waiting another week or 2.

A Detroit sweep pretty much ends our season.

Eight out. We ain't making that up against a Leyland team.

 

Detroit has been the biggest choke artist in baseball the last 5 years or so.

[Balta1701]

If we are really a contender there's great downside to waiting another week or 2.

A Detroit sweep pretty much ends our season.

Eight out. We ain't making that up against a Leyland team.

If this team is able to contend, then they need to prove it. We're not in a position to add Jose Reyes to totally remake things for a one-shot run here. We could use another RH arm in the bullpen or some 3b help or a backup C if we're making a run, but really, that's it. We're not benching Rios, we're not benching Dunn, if Viciedo is called up it's because we've thrown the ol towel in.

[ILMOU]

If this team is able to contend, then they need to prove it. We're not in a position to add Jose Reyes to totally remake things for a one-shot run here. We could use another RH arm in the bullpen or some 3b help or a backup C if we're making a run, but really, that's it. We're not benching Rios, we're not benching Dunn, if Viciedo is called up it's because we've thrown the ol towel in.

 

I doesn't have to be this way, but the way the team is (mis)handling it, you may be right.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Stan Bahnsen

[caulfield12]

If we are really a contender there's great downside to waiting another week or 2.

A Detroit sweep pretty much ends our season.

Eight out. We ain't making that up against a Leyland team.

 

 

Greg, you're forgetting one minor detail.

 

The Tigers have never won the AL Central.

 

They're getting very little out of Inge, Raburn and Ordonez. So of all the teams out there, they would be most interested in Beltran.

 

Valverde hasn't blown a save the entire season, that run of success isn't going to continue.

 

Of all the teams who have a right to fear the Twins at only 6-7 GB, it's the Tigers. They have the same memories of 2006-2010, but even moreso, because they were the team the Twins caught on the last day of 2006 and also losing to them in Game 163 in 2009.

 

They're already fired their pitching coach in somewhat of a desperation move that was supposed to light a fire under Porcello and Scherzer.

 

And their bullpen is still a couple of pitchers short.

 

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Twins put it together in the 2nd half. Who would? If they don't make it, it's only going to be because 1) Mauer and Morneau are shades of their former selves and 2) their bullpen, particularly Capps and Nathan, but basically the whole thing has a been crap ever since they let go of Breslow, Reyes, Rauch, Guerrier, Fuentes and Crain.

 

 

[caulfield12]

That lack of change doesn't seem to bother manager Ozzie Guillen, who likes what he has in-house.

 

"I don't expect anything because I don't know how we pay them," Guillen said. "I feel comfortable with what we have. They have to show me how good they are. If we play to our potential, I guarantee we're going to kick some people's butt. But we're not playing to our potential now."

 

from new Scott Reifert article at mlb.com/chisox.com

 

Is that Ozzie taking another shot at the fans and the low attendance so far this season in the first part of the quote?

Sounds like Ozzie, KW, and the Sox PR staff/Rongey/Boyer/Reifert are all on the same page for the time being.

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

I'm not sure what that means... I think it is Ozzie-speak for these guys make lots of money, so they should be playing better.

[LVSoxFan]

Is that Ozzie taking another shot at the fans and the low attendance so far this season in the first part of the quote?

Sounds like Ozzie, KW, and the Sox PR staff/Rongey/Boyer/Reifert are all on the same page for the time being.

 

If that's what he's doing that is so wrong. I've only been to six games this year (I average 15-20) and that's because I quickly tired of seeing the same sparkless team lose outing after outing because the other team managed to go up two runs. Or tired of bases loaded nobody out and not one run coming in.

 

Don't blame consumers for not buying your crappy product. I'm the biggest Sox fan you could want, but I'm not a chump.

[Cali]

What an arrogant ass.... Maybe they're not playing to their potential because YOU are failing as a coach and have lost them.

[Leonard Zelig]

What an arrogant ass.... Maybe they're not playing to their potential because YOU are failing as a coach and have lost them.

 

At what point do you think he lost Dunn and Rios?

[kitekrazy]

Making no changes at all is KW's last attempt at making himself look good.

 

I'd almost prefer that. With have two starters injured, trading Jackson may not be a good idea.

Hopefully a NL team in a race that has an overstock of prospects at a certain position could use Juan Pierre.

 

I'm starting to believe Viciedo is being shopped around. He's a Boras client.

 

[kitekrazy]

Define hard sell. If you're proposing a full rebuild, then I think that's a huge mistake. I'm down for a couple moves, such as trading Jackson and Quentin, but I don't think we're that far off from competing next year. I think anything beyond a few tweaks is a huge mistake. What team should we be scared of in 2012? Not saying we'll be the favorite, but I don't see any team in the division who's going to be dominant. I still think you try to make one more run at it in 2012 before you even consider rebuilding.

 

They can't rebuild with the current GM and probably others in this organization.

 

[kitekrazy]

Detroit has been the biggest choke artist in baseball the last 5 years or so.

 

Good point.

 

[Balta1701]

They can't rebuild with the current GM and probably others in this organization.

Remember, this is the GM who somehow pulled a rabbit out of his hat and turned that 2007 team into the 2008 division champions.

[kitekrazy]

Remember, this is the GM who somehow pulled a rabbit out of his hat and turned that 2007 team into the 2008 division champions.

 

Great. So far it looks like the 2011 team can turn into the 2007 team. If that's any reason to continue with Kenny it's beyond weak.

 

[Balta1701]

Great. So far it looks like the 2011 team can turn into the 2007 team. If that's any reason to continue with Kenny it's beyond weak.

Now let's be clear here...if you're firing him because of things he's done in the past that have failed, that's one thing...but you argued for replacing him based on the fact that he shouldn't be the guy here to rebuild...which is a different argument. If you're focusing on the 2nd part, that he shouldn't be the guy to do a rebuild, then it's a very strong argument because he pulled it off before, rapidly. If you're focusing on the first, then you're correct, it's beyond weak.

[Chicago White Sox]

I'm starting to believe Viciedo is being shopped around. He's a Boras client.

Then shop him a year or two before he reaches free agency if Boras is still his agent and he won't sign a long-term deal. There is absolutely no reason to shop him right now. He's going to make between $1 - 2 million a year in each of the next three seasons and most likely being extremely productive. I don't know what you think you'll get for him that will be of equal or greater value. Prospects like Viciedo just don't get moved very often anymore, because they are just too damn valuable.

[Chicago White Sox]

They can't rebuild with the current GM and probably others in this organization.

I'm not sure if KW has the patience for a legitimate rebuilding. Hard to really say how he'd do, because he's never done more than a retooling. Regardless, if we are going to go through a 4 - 6 year rebuilding process, then we definitely need new blood throughout the organization. That includes a new GM and manager.

[caulfield12]

Balta brings up a good point about 2007-2008.

 

However, that means 1) they're going to have to bring in another Alexei Ramirez, which some would count as Viciedo already.

 

2) Acquire another hitter with the ability to put up MVP-like numbers as Quentin did. And have the equivalent of Chris Carter to trade...replacing Quentin with Viciedo is probably not a net gain unless you turn around and spend that extra $6 million or so.

 

3) Trade Danks for the equivalent of another, younger/cheaper Danks

 

4) Turn a bad contract into another Gavin Floyd

 

 

So you could argue we're 3 "perfect" moves from competing for the World Series...and 3 horrible moves away from sinking below the Royals.

 

And there's even MORE wariness than ever before about trading away young talent for veterans in Years 4-6 or players about to become free agents.

 

And out of Rios, Dunn, Peavy and Beckham, at least 2 of those 4 are going to have to play and pitch like All-Stars/Cy Young Award winners. And that's the biggest question mark that nobody can answer going forward. You can look at it as "adding four new players" (the White Sox spin on things) or four lost causes that are weighing down our present and future.

 

Honestly, a lot of people are pretty convinced about Dunn and Peavy EVENTUALLY turning things around. You just have no idea what we're going to get out of either Beckham or Rios, though.

Edited July 14, 2011 by caulfield12

[kitekrazy]

<!--quoteo(post=2432494:date=Jul 14, 2011 -> 05:33 PM:name=kitekrazy)-->

<!--quotec-->I'm starting to believe Viciedo is being shopped around. He's a Boras client.

Then shop him a year or two before he reaches free agency if Boras is still his agent and he won't sign a long-term deal. There is absolutely no reason to shop him right now. He's going to make between $1 - 2 million a year in each of the next three seasons and most likely being extremely productive. I don't know what you think you'll get for him that will be of equal or greater value. Prospects like Viciedo just don't get moved very often anymore, because they are just too damn valuable.

 

He could be just as valuable right now in the minors.

[kitekrazy]

I'm not sure if KW has the patience for a legitimate rebuilding. Hard to really say how he'd do, because he's never done more than a retooling. Regardless, if we are going to go through a 4 - 6 year rebuilding process, then we definitely need new blood throughout the organization. That includes a new GM and manager.

 

He's been pretty bad at that as well.

 

[Dick Allen]

Here's the article.

 

Which, by the way, quotes KW of being tired of talking about "stats and slumps."

 

Here's exactly what he said about Ozzie:

 

Williams said he likes the way Guillen has called his team out or defended it, depending on the situation.

 

‘‘The tone is set by the manager and coaches,’’ he said. ‘‘They certainly have an effect on the players. These are professional sports. There are times when players need a kick in the butt, there are times when they need to restore a sense of calm and confidence and there are times when you have to do a little bit of both. And I think what Ozzie did was, he did a little of both. It was needed at the time, and it was very timely.’’

I agree with KW. Its worked out perfectly.

[Dick Allen]

I really doubt the Sox will ever go into a full rebuild in the few months, but if they did, the first guy you trade is Paul Konerko.

[caulfield12]

Which would be the sad part.

 

Sacrificing Konerko (sure JR and the fans will love that one) because of players like Dunn, Teahen and Rios that nobody wants to see play.

 

That would be adding insult to injury to the already cynical fanbase, along with trading Danks, Quentin and Buehrle.

 

 

Well, KW was in this same "dark place" in 2007, dug down deep and decided to keep Buehrle and Dye around. It's not his modus operandi...which has actually been one of his strengths, but a weakness simultaneously. But it certainly worked out in 2008.