Balta1701 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 03:04 PM) So the Rays have a better record than the Indians in a by far better division, lost 57 free agents, have been without their super star 3B for 35 games, and Acta is more deserving? If you look at it in a vacuum, yes, Acta is more deserving because they're closer to first place. But that's corny. And that gives me more reason to hate on the Sox. If they were playing at 85% of what I believe to be their optimal potential, we wouldn't even be debating this. As we'd be in first by at least 6 games or so. How many games has Grady Sizemore missed? Or Shin-Soo Choo? And how many players did they lose the last few years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:06 PM) Dude, we can't even beat the Royals and Twins. What our record be if we had to regularly face the Red Sox and Yankees? s***, the Blue Jays have owned us of late. We are 3-0 against Boston this year, and 13 wins out of the last 18. The Yankees we have split this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 12:53 PM) By what criteria is Acta more deserving than Maddon outside of his team is closer to first place in a clearly inferior division? Personally, I don't have much of an opinion formed and I'm always impressed by Maddon. Just sayin' that the writers follow a story, and 1st place (IK 1/2 game out currently) is sexier than 3rd, regardless of circumstance, and the Tribe will be getting a lot more publicity if they're in it in the stretch run, than will a valiant effort from a team that's 10 games back of two superior clubs. Maddon's chances depend on how closely the Rays are competing with the BoSox/Yanks when it really becomes a pennant race. Edited July 13, 2011 by Stan Bahnsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:08 PM) We are 3-0 against Boston this year, and 13 wins out of the last 18. The Yankees we have split this year. I deleted that post for a reason. As I realized Hurt's post had nothing to do with the White Sox. lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Then again, I really don't think Cleveland will be at the top of this division when the season is over... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:05 PM) How many games has Grady Sizemore missed? Or Shin-Soo Choo? And how many players did they lose the last few years? What have the Indians lost of significance the last couple years? You're not trying to go back to Cliff Lee, are you? When they sucked anyway. The Rays lost multiple key components from a 95 win team. There's no comparison. Sizemore has been a gingerbread man for going on three years now. Choo hasn't hit all year. They've taken advantage of a weak division. Highlighted by the massive busts that have been the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 The Indians have actually played BOS/NYY 13 times (7-6), while the Rays have only played them 10 times (5-5). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 03:12 PM) What have the Indians lost of significance the last couple years? You're not trying to go back to Cliff Lee, are you? When they sucked anyway. The Rays lost multiple key components from a 95 win team. There's no comparison. Sizemore has been a gingerbread man for going on three years now. Choo hasn't hit all year. They've taken advantage of a weak division. Highlighted by the massive busts that have been the White Sox. So the Indians are nearly tied with the Rays despite getting nothing from the guy who should have been their best hitter? Well, that sounds exactly like your argument for why Maddon gets so much credit for the Rays being good despite losing Longoria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:13 PM) The Indians have actually played BOS/NYY 13 times (7-6), while the Rays have only played them 10 times (5-5). You could make a solid argument that the Blue Jays are better than any team in our division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:14 PM) So the Indians are nearly tied with the Rays despite getting nothing from the guy who should have been their best hitter? Well, that sounds exactly like your argument for why Maddon gets so much credit for the Rays being good despite losing Longoria. Longoria was just part of my argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 11:34 AM) Milkman - just one question. Should Gardenhire be fired if the Twins win the division and get swept? Maybe people here don't really know what it's like on their side of the fence. They believe Mauer is a bad contract. Gardy can't win in the post season, ect. I think their biggest fans are Hawk and Ozzie. I guess you have to be fan of a time that makes the post season every year and know they aren't going to win the whole thing. Last year was the first time I didn't watch the Colts do another one and done. I knew they weren't good enough and got there being in a bad division. I think fans get desensitized when their team can only win divisions. If the Twins win the division this year, I don't think their fans will be that excited. After their one and done they'll want a new GM, new manager and Mauer traded. Edited July 13, 2011 by kitekrazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:20 PM) Maybe people here don't really know what it's like on their side of the fence. They believe Mauer is a bad contract. Gardy can't win in the post season, ect. I think their biggest fans are Hawk and Ozzie. I guess you have to be fan of a time that makes the post season every year and know they aren't going to win the whole thing. Last year was the first time I didn't watch the Colts do another one and done. I knew they weren't good enough and got there being in a bad division. I think fans get desensitized when their team can only win divisions. If the Twins win the division this year, I don't think their fans will be that excited. After their one and done they'll want a new GM, new manager and Mauer traded. Should the Braves have fired Bobby Cox after so many playoff flameouts? How about Scocia (I probably spelled that wrong)? I think there's something to be said about consistently getting to October every year. In the NBA, making the playoffs is nowhere near as significant unless you're a top 4 seed. In the NFL, you see 9-7 teams make the playoffs all the time. In baseball, if you can survive a 162 game marathon, 9.5 times out of 10, you were deserving. To do that year after year, yeah, I'd say you're doing something right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:25 PM) Should the Braves have fired Bobby Cox after so many playoff flameouts? How about Scocia (I probably spelled that wrong)? I think there's something to be said about consistently getting to October every year. In the NBA, making the playoffs is nowhere near as significant unless you're a top 4 seed. In the NFL, you see 9-7 teams make the playoffs all the time. In baseball, if you can survive a 162 game marathon, 9.5 times out of 10, you were deserving. To do that year after year, yeah, I'd say you're doing something right. You make a good point about the nature of the MLB playoffs and I agree that 90% of the battle is making the playoffs. That being said, there is one major difference with Gardenhire. Cox & Scioscia have won WS, Gardy hasn't even made it there. Gardy has won one series out of 7. In their last 5 LDS flameouts, the Twins have gone 2-15(.118) . Cox ended his career with 5 straight LDS losses, but they still went 8-15 (.348) in those games. I know only the series result matters, but the Twins haven't even been competing. Gardy's career playoff record is 6-21 (.222) Cox is 67-69 (.493). Scioscia is 21-24 (.467) At some point, you have to start winning some games in the playoffs, and I do realize the playoffs can be a crapshoot, but still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:41 PM) You make a good point about the nature of the MLB playoffs and I agree that 90% of the battle is making the playoffs. That being said, there is one major difference with Gardenhire. Cox & Scioscia have won WS, Gardy hasn't even made it there. Gardy has won one series out of 7. In their last 5 LDS flameouts, the Twins have gone 2-15(.118) . Cox ended his career with 5 straight LDS losses, but they still went 8-15 (.348) in those games. I know only the series result matters, but the Twins haven't even been competing. Gardy's career playoff record is 6-21 (.222) Cox is 67-69 (.493). Scioscia is 21-24 (.467) At some point, you have to start winning some games in the playoffs, and I do realize the playoffs can be a crapshoot, but still. I agree. It's a catch-22 in baseball. In the NFL, you can win a SB and get fired two years later if you suck. A World Series title can guarantee you another 5 years at the minimum. No matter what you do. One World Series title or 5 trips to the playoffs in 6 years? Obviously, most would take the World Series title if it's guaranteed. But that certainly doesn't mean the manager who won the World Series is better than the manager that got to the postseason 5 years in a 6 year stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 02:25 PM) Should the Braves have fired Bobby Cox after so many playoff flameouts? How about Scocia (I probably spelled that wrong)? I think there's something to be said about consistently getting to October every year. In the NBA, making the playoffs is nowhere near as significant unless you're a top 4 seed. In the NFL, you see 9-7 teams make the playoffs all the time. In baseball, if you can survive a 162 game marathon, 9.5 times out of 10, you were deserving. To do that year after year, yeah, I'd say you're doing something right. The point is those things become complacent where upper management decides that person can't take the team to the next level. Fans of consistent winning teams demand higher expectations than just making the post season. Players and coaches get the label, "can't win the big one". That's how Twin fans label their organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 11:34 AM) Milkman - just one question. Should Gardenhire be fired if the Twins win the division and get swept? Quite possibly, but a lot of that might be contingent on whether or not he has control of the clubhouse. I don't know the more "inside" stuff with that team. I'm sure their expectations are higher than ours after winning so many divisions and always having the same results. It's time for them to take the next step and if they don't, I couldn't fault them for going in another direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 04:54 PM) Quite possibly, but a lot of that might be contingent on whether or not he has control of the clubhouse. I don't know the more "inside" stuff with that team. I'm sure their expectations are higher than ours after winning so many divisions and always having the same results. It's time for them to take the next step and if they don't, I couldn't fault them for going in another direction. That is one clubhouse that has had some private stuff spill over into the public arena this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 03:54 PM) Quite possibly, but a lot of that might be contingent on whether or not he has control of the clubhouse. I don't know the more "inside" stuff with that team. I'm sure their expectations are higher than ours after winning so many divisions and always having the same results. It's time for them to take the next step and if they don't, I couldn't fault them for going in another direction. How many times were the Twins favored to beat the Yankees? I'm not asking you this. Just a general question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 03:59 PM) How many times were the Twins favored to beat the Yankees? I'm not asking you this. Just a general question. I think last season was the first year in a while where people thought the Twins actually had a chance. They s*** their pants...like always. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 05:11 PM) I think last season was the first year in a while where people thought the Twins actually had a chance. They s*** their pants...like always. In 09 it took a Herculean effort for the Twins to catch the Tigers then that incredible extra inning game 163 where they torched their entire pitching staff. They then had to go against a Yankee team the next day with Captain Cheeseburger on the mound out of the gate. It would have taken a miracle for them to have a shot in 09. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) Let's see. The Indians have been without a "revitalized" Travis Hafner for over half their games. LaPorta has missed a lot of time. Shoo and Sizemore nowhere close to their career levels and/or injured. So basically you've got a team led by Asdrubal Cabrera (offensively) in first place. Some of their most important contributors in the first half have been Hannahan, Orlando Cabrera, Lou Marson, Michael Brantley, Travis Buck and Shelley Duncan. They've only got 2 hitters with over an 800 OPS in Hafner and Cabrera. Nobody in baseball was predicting that we expect too much from Carlos Carrasco, Tomlin, Talbot...and that bullpen looked like it was full of more holes than Swiss cheese preseason. Carmona/Masterson always were loved by scouts but hadn't produced consistent results in recent seasons. Oh, and they also lost first round draft pick Alex White to a freak injury. He served as their main pitching depth and looked very good when he was able to take the mound. Edited July 13, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jul 13, 2011 -> 03:54 PM) Quite possibly, but a lot of that might be contingent on whether or not he has control of the clubhouse. I don't know the more "inside" stuff with that team. I'm sure their expectations are higher than ours after winning so many divisions and always having the same results. It's time for them to take the next step and if they don't, I couldn't fault them for going in another direction. The Twins haven't fired a manager in 25 years. They won't fire Gardenhire. He'll have to quit. The organization loves him more than Hawk does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgrad70 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Jul 10, 2011 -> 06:58 PM) The only part of this post that is worth a damn is the minor league part. I never understood why they don't spend for top talent in the draft (ok well I do it's because JR and Bud Selig are close, so JR wouldn't think of going over slot so Bud can control player salaries in the draft when in the grand scheme of things it's not that much money /rant) but they have no problem throwing millions at Cubans and players from Japan (didn't they pay Iguchi without scouting him in person? I know it worked out but still). J4L apparently is forgetting the McCarthy for Danks fleecing. I think the "manager quit" crap is pure hyperbole, but I'm tiring of playing smallball crap. Plus, I'm not sure what makes JR "worthless" besides what I posted above. He spent the money. Didn't fans b**** for years about how he was cheap and whatnot. He put his dick out on the table to win NOW. What more do you want from him? Put us all out of our misery and sell. Most of these fans on these sites absolutely slay me in their defense of this man. The guy should have been spending AT LEAST 120 million a year in a metropolis this size. Heck, he ought to be spending that much on the minor league system alone. Give me a freaking break with St. Jerry of Reinsdorf already. The guy is and always has been a snake oil salesman and this year he's getting exactly what he deserves and I couldn't be more pleased. Edited July 14, 2011 by mcgrad70 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParkerBear7 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 QUOTE (MexSoxFan#1 @ Jul 12, 2011 -> 09:55 AM) About KW and bad trades, Gio for Swisher says hi...about Ditka being the "last famous HC to win before last years Blackhawks", Phil Jackson says WTF! Excellent point. Sorry, the Bulls have been terribull (pun intened) up until the arrival of D-Rose. My apologies to Coach Jackson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 QUOTE (mcgrad70 @ Jul 14, 2011 -> 03:47 AM) Put us all out of our misery and sell. Most of these fans on these sites absolutely slay me in their defense of this man. The guy should have been spending AT LEAST 120 million a year in a metropolis this size. Heck, he ought to be spending that much on the minor league system alone. Give me a freaking break with St. Jerry of Reinsdorf already. The guy is and always has been a snake oil salesman and this year he's getting exactly what he deserves and I couldn't be more pleased. I thought this was one of my posts the way it looked in post format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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