This organization is in disarray

[Greg Hibbard]

Warning: Extremely long post!

 

I also do not like how this season has gone thus far but what irks me is fans like you who quit on the team. KW and Ozzie deserve more respect for how they turned the Sox around years ago from a cultural disaster and winning standpoint. What I am not saying here: KW & Oz should not be untouchable and should be accountable for their fair share of mistakes. Obviously, from my perspective they have not yet earned a one way ticket out of town.

 

The truth is this team was in a major slump where losing was the norm year in year out. KW and Ozzie have revitalized this organization. If they didn't you would probably already be a cubs fan (may be a little harsh since I do not know you but it got your attention!). I would argue that Williams and Guillen are actually responsible for having raised all of our expectations to the point that Sox fans no longer except mediocrity. I view this as a good thing. I still believe in the overall philosophy of Jerry, KW, and Ozzie; the vision to re-instill White Sox baseball by bring back a lot of former Sox players from the 80's etc. Heck, they have even recently brought Robin Ventura back in a limited minor league role. I really think this Sox Family philosophy is key to success oh and it would be helpful if the player perform as expected….Rios, Dunn, Bacon….et al!!!

 

Kenny Williams: Sure, I do not always agree with KW roster moves (feel he has bit of a gambling problem that only worsened after having much luck in 2005) and it is not coincidental that the Sox are ALL IN! Anyone looking at his trade history understand why this is a fitting marketing slogan. But know this; Kenny Williams is a very competitive GM that wants to win it all every year but that is what I want in a GM. I too wish KW would exercise some restraints before trading away some of the young guys but other than lets say Chris Young and Daniel Hudson which trades have really come back to haunt the Sox? I can't think of many.

 

Ozzie Guillen: Now let me talk about the man you most want gone: Ozzie. I love Ozzie’s fire and passion for the game and how he is not afraid to mix it up. Yes, I also agree that his rants grow old from time to time. Question: is it hypocritical if Sox fans who also are Bears fan could love this same passion and fire that we all loved in Coach Ditka who happened to be the last famous Head Coach to win a major championship before the Black Hawks? Yes, Ditka finally wore out his welcome with management and I am not saying Ozzie will not eventually do the same. I think managing baseball has to be the hardest sport too manager as the season is so long with fewest playoff spots. Not an excuse but a reality of baseballs current format.

 

Now it is impossible for me to follow the sox as close as when I lived in Chicago but your demand for Ozzie to be fired is not going to solve the problem. Firing Ozzie will only accomplish one thing, last place and a lame duck manager such like past managers like Terry "boomer" Bevington, Jerry Manual, Gene Lamont etc. Here is an alternative for your axe to grind: Why not give credit where credit is due...the players deserve credit for how this season has gone so far due to performance.

 

Here is the good news: As bad as this team has played the first half, they are only a few games back and still have a chance.

 

Go Sox!

 

 

I agree with a lot of this.

 

A lot of people who say Williams hasn't done jack s*** since '05 conveniently forget pieces like Quentin, Humber, Floyd and Danks.

[BigSqwert]

A lot of people who say Williams hasn't done jack s*** since '05 conveniently forget pieces like Quentin, Humber, Floyd and Danks.

They aren't saying he's done jack s***. They're saying he's done more harm than good in recent years.

Edited July 12, 2011 by BigSqwert

[Greg Hibbard]

A GM who really has no idea wtf he's doing and hasn't since '05.

 

what does "no idea" mean to you?

Edited July 12, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[southsider2k5]

I think I have figured out that watching Adam Dunn hit lefties is what it must feel like to be a Cub fan. You know what is going to happen, and yet you still watch and hold out this little bit of hope that this will be the time! Ugh.

[LittleHurt05]

I think I have figured out that watching Adam Dunn hit lefties is what it must feel like to be a Cub fan. You know what is going to happen, and yet you still watch and hold out this little bit of hope that this will be the time! Ugh.

 

LOL, it's the definition of insanity

[hogan873]

I think I have figured out that watching Adam Dunn hit lefties is what it must feel like to be a Cub fan. You know what is going to happen, and yet you still watch and hold out this little bit of hope that this will be the time! Ugh.

That's a very good analogy. I guess we should be thankful that it's only one player we feel that way about vs. the whole team. However...

[fathom]

Ozzie Guillen: Now let me talk about the man you most want gone: Ozzie. I love Ozzie's fire and passion for the game and how he is not afraid to mix it up. Yes, I also agree that his rants grow old from time to time. Question: is it hypocritical if Sox fans who also are Bears fan could love this same passion and fire that we all loved in Coach Ditka who happened to be the last famous Head Coach to win a major championship before the Black Hawks? Yes, Ditka finally wore out his welcome with management and I am not saying Ozzie will not eventually do the same. I think managing baseball has to be the hardest sport too manager as the season is so long with fewest playoff spots. Not an excuse but a reality of baseballs current format.

 

Now it is impossible for me to follow the sox as close as when I lived in Chicago but your demand for Ozzie to be fired is not going to solve the problem. Firing Ozzie will only accomplish one thing, last place and a lame duck manager such like past managers like Terry "boomer" Bevington, Jerry Manual, Gene Lamont etc. Here is an alternative for your axe to grind: Why not give credit where credit is due...the players deserve credit for how this season has gone so far due to performance.

 

Last time I checked, the 2007 Sox had a lower winning percentage that year than Bevington, Manuel or Lamont ever had as a Sox manager.

[MexSoxFan#1]

Warning: Extremely long post!

 

I also do not like how this season has gone thus far but what irks me is fans like you who quit on the team. KW and Ozzie deserve more respect for how they turned the Sox around years ago from a cultural disaster and winning standpoint. What I am not saying here: KW & Oz should not be untouchable and should be accountable for their fair share of mistakes. Obviously, from my perspective they have not yet earned a one way ticket out of town.

 

The truth is this team was in a major slump where losing was the norm year in year out. KW and Ozzie have revitalized this organization. If they didn't you would probably already be a cubs fan (may be a little harsh since I do not know you but it got your attention!). I would argue that Williams and Guillen are actually responsible for having raised all of our expectations to the point that Sox fans no longer except mediocrity. I view this as a good thing. I still believe in the overall philosophy of Jerry, KW, and Ozzie; the vision to re-instill White Sox baseball by bring back a lot of former Sox players from the 80's etc. Heck, they have even recently brought Robin Ventura back in a limited minor league role. I really think this Sox Family philosophy is key to success oh and it would be helpful if the player perform as expected….Rios, Dunn, Bacon….et al!!!

 

Kenny Williams: Sure, I do not always agree with KW roster moves (feel he has bit of a gambling problem that only worsened after having much luck in 2005) and it is not coincidental that the Sox are ALL IN! Anyone looking at his trade history understand why this is a fitting marketing slogan. But know this; Kenny Williams is a very competitive GM that wants to win it all every year but that is what I want in a GM. I too wish KW would exercise some restraints before trading away some of the young guys but other than lets say Chris Young and Daniel Hudson which trades have really come back to haunt the Sox? I can't think of many.

 

Ozzie Guillen: Now let me talk about the man you most want gone: Ozzie. I love Ozzie’s fire and passion for the game and how he is not afraid to mix it up. Yes, I also agree that his rants grow old from time to time. Question: is it hypocritical if Sox fans who also are Bears fan could love this same passion and fire that we all loved in Coach Ditka who happened to be the last famous Head Coach to win a major championship before the Black Hawks? Yes, Ditka finally wore out his welcome with management and I am not saying Ozzie will not eventually do the same. I think managing baseball has to be the hardest sport too manager as the season is so long with fewest playoff spots. Not an excuse but a reality of baseballs current format.

 

Now it is impossible for me to follow the sox as close as when I lived in Chicago but your demand for Ozzie to be fired is not going to solve the problem. Firing Ozzie will only accomplish one thing, last place and a lame duck manager such like past managers like Terry "boomer" Bevington, Jerry Manual, Gene Lamont etc. Here is an alternative for your axe to grind: Why not give credit where credit is due...the players deserve credit for how this season has gone so far due to performance.

 

Here is the good news: As bad as this team has played the first half, they are only a few games back and still have a chance.

 

Go Sox!

About KW and bad trades, Gio for Swisher says hi...about Ditka being the "last famous HC to win before last years Blackhawks", Phil Jackson says WTF!

[chisoxt]

This is really a great post

It sure is. And the sad part is, that with all of the horrible financial committements the Sox have, the only way out of this horrid mess is to:

1. Hope that that some of the current dead weight "floats to the top";

2. Find nuggets off the scrap pile ala Phil Humber, and

3. Patiently develop our own talent

Presently, I am not optimistic about any of the three happening.

[chisoxt]

Warning: Extremely long post!

 

......Kenny Williams: Sure, I do not always agree with KW roster moves (feel he has bit of a gambling problem that only worsened after having much luck in 2005) and it is not coincidental that the Sox are ALL IN! Anyone looking at his trade history understand why this is a fitting marketing slogan. But know this; Kenny Williams is a very competitive GM that wants to win it all every year but that is what I want in a GM. I too wish KW would exercise some restraints before trading away some of the young guys but other than lets say Chris Young and Daniel Hudson which trades have really come back to haunt the Sox? I can't think of many.. ......

 

 

I admire Kenny's enthusiam and drive to win. He always seems to search out guys who have his football player's mentality. Therein lies what I think is a huge problem...The thing that Kenny or the next Sox GM must understand is that this is baseball, not football. Sometimes you have to be patient and even admit that certain years just may not be your year.

 

Regarding 2005, the irony of Williams' success is with that team is that the only player that KW acquired as a result of an all-in type deal was Freddy Garcia. Of course, it didn't hurt that as Freddy was a relative of Ozzies's the Sox had a strong inidcation that they also could resign him.

 

Many of the other key players from that squad were either obtained through low-cost acquisitions such as AJ, Tadahito, Carl Everett, Bobby Jenks, Juan Uribe, Scotty Pods, or, gasp, developed from within (Crede, Buehrle, Rowand). Kenny worked very hard in the off season after 2004 to stretch what limited resources he had to work with. Kenny was uncharacteristically patient in that off season and his efforts were richly rewarded.

 

I used to think that having a large budget to work with was a good thing, but when I see certain GMs (Williams, Hendry, Manya) squander those resources, I no longer think that is the case.

[southsider2k5]

I admire Kenny's enthusiam and drive to win. He always seems to search out guys who have his football player's mentality. Therein lies what I think is a huge problem...The thing that Kenny or the next Sox GM must understand is that this is baseball, not football. Sometimes you have to be patient and even admit that certain years just may not be your year.

 

Regarding 2005, the irony of Williams' success is with that team is that the only player that KW acquired as a result of an all-in type deal was Freddy Garcia. Of course, it didn't hurt that as Freddy was a relative of Ozzies's the Sox had a strong inidcation that they also could resign him.

 

Many of the other key players from that squad were either obtained through low-cost acquisitions such as AJ, Tadahito, Carl Everett, Bobby Jenks, Juan Uribe, Scotty Pods, or, gasp, developed from within (Crede, Buehrle, Rowand). Kenny worked very hard in the off season after 2004 to stretch what limited resources he had to work with. Kenny was uncharacteristically patient in that off season and his efforts were richly rewarded.

 

I used to think that having a large budget to work with was a good thing, but when I see certain GMs (Williams, Hendry, Manya) squander those resources, I no longer think that is the case.

 

Carl Everett came here from a pretty big deal right before the ASB. Pods was in the huge Carlos Lee deal with MIL.

[StrangeSox]

I think I have figured out that watching Adam Dunn hit lefties is what it must feel like to be a Cub fan. You know what is going to happen, and yet you still watch and hold out this little bit of hope that this will be the time! Ugh.

[EvilJester99]

I say they fire KW and promote Hahn. There are a lot of teams who think he is the next big time GM..it would also diffuse the Oz and Kw crap.

[Balta1701]

I say they fire KW and promote Hahn. There are a lot of teams who think he is the next big time GM..it would also diffuse the Oz and Kw crap.

And yet, it seems like 2/3 of the league has turned over a GM since Rick Hahn became the next big thing without hiring him.

[southsider2k5]

And yet, it seems like 2/3 of the league has turned over a GM since Rick Hahn became the next big thing without hiring him.

 

How many coaches were gone through before Thibs was hired.

[Balta1701]

How many coaches were gone through before Thibs was hired.

Had the Bulls not hired him, wouldn't he still be an assistant in Boston?

[southsider2k5]

Had the Bulls not hired him, wouldn't he still be an assistant in Boston?

 

That's doesn't mean he isn't a good coach/GM.

[Jack Parkman]

Warning: Long post

KW has made his fair share of mistakes with trading over the last 3 years, but for him that was bound to turn around. We could all say he is stupid for those things, but the only prospects he traded over the first 7 years of his tenure(2001-08) that had any semblance of success in the major leagues were Chris Young and Gio Gonzalez. Let's not forget the McCarthy for Danks, Floyd and Gio for Freddy, Quentin for Carter and Thornton for Borchard. Even this season he picked up Humber and they have turned him into a useful pitcher. KW needs to go back to doing what he does best-trading players for top prospects that are blocked by large contracts or former first round picks who haven't quite put it all together yet at the major league level, but have a large amount of talent. This is the advantage of having a GM who uses the old fashioned "scouting" mentality over sabermetrics. Someone said earlier that maybe it kept KW in check to have a low payroll, and it kept him from trading too many prospects. I'd agree. We brought up McCarthy and Anderson (though they ultimately failed whether here or elsewhere) and we brought up Floyd and Danks as well. This was under the time when the payroll was around $90-105 MM. In 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011 the payroll was increasing each year, and KW had more ability to spend, he traded cost controlled guys for more expensive guys, and instead of filling holes with acquiring 23-25 year old, cost controlled players who had a lot of talent and didn't put it together yet, he went on the waiver wire/trade market/FA and aquired guys like Peavy, Rios and Dunn. What made KW a great GM for those first 7 years was the ability to find hidden gems out of necessity in order to field a competitive team. Now that he doesn't have those constraints, he has become impulsive because he has extra money that he didn't have for most of his tenure here, and apparently, he doesn't know what to do with it. I will always defend KW on the Peavy deal, because it wasn't the deal itself that was bad, it was the mismanagement of a pitcher with violent, awkward mechanics. I maintain that if Peavy doesn't come back in 2009, then he doesn't get detach the lat. Peavy himself said this was true in an offseason interview with Rongey.

 

[Balta1701]

That's doesn't mean he isn't a good coach/GM.

But it does mean that he wasn't the next big thing.

[greg775]

Warning: Long post

KW has made his fair share of mistakes with trading over the last 3 years, but for him that was bound to turn around. We could all say he is stupid for those things, but the only prospects he traded over the first 7 years of his tenure(2001-08) that had any semblance of success in the major leagues were Chris Young and Gio Gonzalez. Let's not forget the McCarthy for Danks, Floyd and Gio for Freddy, Quentin for Carter and Thornton for Borchard. Even this season he picked up Humber and they have turned him into a useful pitcher. KW needs to go back to doing what he does best-trading players for top prospects that are blocked by large contracts or former first round picks who haven't quite put it all together yet at the major league level, but have a large amount of talent. This is the advantage of having a GM who uses the old fashioned "scouting" mentality over sabermetrics. Someone said earlier that maybe it kept KW in check to have a low payroll, and it kept him from trading too many prospects. I'd agree. We brought up McCarthy and Anderson (though they ultimately failed whether here or elsewhere) and we brought up Floyd and Danks as well. This was under the time when the payroll was around $90-105 MM. In 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011 the payroll was increasing each year, and KW had more ability to spend, he traded cost controlled guys for more expensive guys, and instead of filling holes with acquiring 23-25 year old, cost controlled players who had a lot of talent and didn't put it together yet, he went on the waiver wire/trade market/FA and aquired guys like Peavy, Rios and Dunn. What made KW a great GM for those first 7 years was the ability to find hidden gems out of necessity in order to field a competitive team. Now that he doesn't have those constraints, he has become impulsive because he has extra money that he didn't have for most of his tenure here, and apparently, he doesn't know what to do with it. I will always defend KW on the Peavy deal, because it wasn't the deal itself that was bad, it was the mismanagement of a pitcher with violent, awkward mechanics. I maintain that if Peavy doesn't come back in 2009, then he doesn't get detach the lat. Peavy himself said this was true in an offseason interview with Rongey.

 

So many people on this site wanted Peavy to pitch those meaningless games in 09.

That was so stupid to trot him out there for a month.

Man, I can't believe our team has stunk for this long. That was a lousy season. Last year stunk, now this.

[Milkman delivers]

Warning: Extremely long post!

 

I also do not like how this season has gone thus far but what irks me is fans like you who quit on the team. KW and Ozzie deserve more respect for how they turned the Sox around years ago from a cultural disaster and winning standpoint. What I am not saying here: KW & Oz should not be untouchable and should be accountable for their fair share of mistakes. Obviously, from my perspective they have not yet earned a one way ticket out of town.

 

The truth is this team was in a major slump where losing was the norm year in year out. KW and Ozzie have revitalized this organization. If they didn't you would probably already be a cubs fan (may be a little harsh since I do not know you but it got your attention!). I would argue that Williams and Guillen are actually responsible for having raised all of our expectations to the point that Sox fans no longer except mediocrity. I view this as a good thing. I still believe in the overall philosophy of Jerry, KW, and Ozzie; the vision to re-instill White Sox baseball by bring back a lot of former Sox players from the 80's etc. Heck, they have even recently brought Robin Ventura back in a limited minor league role. I really think this Sox Family philosophy is key to success oh and it would be helpful if the player perform as expected….Rios, Dunn, Bacon….et al!!!

 

Kenny Williams: Sure, I do not always agree with KW roster moves (feel he has bit of a gambling problem that only worsened after having much luck in 2005) and it is not coincidental that the Sox are ALL IN! Anyone looking at his trade history understand why this is a fitting marketing slogan. But know this; Kenny Williams is a very competitive GM that wants to win it all every year but that is what I want in a GM. I too wish KW would exercise some restraints before trading away some of the young guys but other than lets say Chris Young and Daniel Hudson which trades have really come back to haunt the Sox? I can't think of many.

 

Ozzie Guillen: Now let me talk about the man you most want gone: Ozzie. I love Ozzie’s fire and passion for the game and how he is not afraid to mix it up. Yes, I also agree that his rants grow old from time to time. Question: is it hypocritical if Sox fans who also are Bears fan could love this same passion and fire that we all loved in Coach Ditka who happened to be the last famous Head Coach to win a major championship before the Black Hawks? Yes, Ditka finally wore out his welcome with management and I am not saying Ozzie will not eventually do the same. I think managing baseball has to be the hardest sport too manager as the season is so long with fewest playoff spots. Not an excuse but a reality of baseballs current format.

 

Now it is impossible for me to follow the sox as close as when I lived in Chicago but your demand for Ozzie to be fired is not going to solve the problem. Firing Ozzie will only accomplish one thing, last place and a lame duck manager such like past managers like Terry "boomer" Bevington, Jerry Manual, Gene Lamont etc. Here is an alternative for your axe to grind: Why not give credit where credit is due...the players deserve credit for how this season has gone so far due to performance.

 

Here is the good news: As bad as this team has played the first half, they are only a few games back and still have a chance.

 

Go Sox!

 

Yes, we expect more, but that's still what we get. Mediocrity.

 

And Ditka is the perfect comparison for Ozzie. They're both loudmouths that tripped over championships thanks to an aspect of the team that is widely credited to another coach (Buddy Ryan's defense and Don Cooper's pitching staff), have worn out their welcomes, and will continue to be fellated for years by an easily-pleased and, for the most part, ignorant group of Chicago fans.

[Milkman delivers]

5 games back at the break with a veteran team. Lets not read the eulogy yet. Detroit? Cleveland? Minnesota? Not exactly dynasties.

 

In what sense do you mean dynasty? Because the Twins have won this division in 6 of the last 9 seasons. That's somewhat dynastic.

[Milkman delivers]

what does "no idea" mean to you?

 

J4L is a lot of people, apparently.

[Balta1701]

In what sense do you mean dynasty? Because the Twins have won this division in 6 of the last 9 seasons. That's somewhat dynastic.

How many consecutive years does a team need to lose to the Yankees before we call it a dynasty?

[southsider2k5]

How many consecutive years does a team need to lose to the Yankees before we call it a dynasty?

 

Or at least win a single playoff game? Heck we keep hearing that it doesn't matter if the Sox get to the playoffs and get smacked down right away, yet the Twins are a dynasty for doing exactly that? Uh, ok.