This organization is in disarray

[LittleHurt05]

People apparently just have a problem with me using the term "dynasty". Fine, I didn't realize people would be so annoyed by semantics. The point is that the Twins have had a run of dominance in the AL Central. I apologize for using such an inflammatory word, but the run of dominance can't really be argued.

 

Wait, I'm sure it can and shortly will be...

 

The Twins may have had the run of dominance & the dynasty, but I guarantee Twins fans would trade their last nine seasons for the Sox' seasons without a second thought.

[bigruss]

Milkman - just one question.

 

Should Gardenhire be fired if the Twins win the division and get swept?

I'll answer it for him, if you're talking about this year then he's MOTY.

[Leonard Zelig]

I'll answer it for him, if you're talking about this year then he's MOTY.

Didn't Girardi win that award and still get fired?

[Balta1701]

Didn't Girardi win that award and still get fired?

Can we all just agree that "Things Florida Does" shouldn't count as precedent?

[caulfield12]

But Twins fans would retort with the, well, we already have 1987 and 1991 card in our pockets.

 

To which someone would probably retort...well, they wouldn't have won all those playoff games without the home field advantage, etc. (In the same way that we do about the "luckiness" of actually having the Twins fall apart that final week in 2008 after they'd ripped through us....winning the three games in a row, coin flip going in our favor...which would now be nullified, etc.)

 

Leading to the...we were "lucky/fortunate" in 2008, but in 2003, 2004, 2006, 2009, 2010...the Twins just flat out beat us head-to-head.

 

If you tip the scales to the Twins winning 7 of 9 and the White Sox just ONE of the past 9 years, it's pretty damning.

 

OFC, you can include 2000 in that stat....make it 3 for the Sox, 6 for the Twins, 2 for the Indians. Makes the Tigers look like the real underachievers in the AL Central, doesn't it? Of course, does DET getting to the World Series in 2006 trump all those Twins' playoff appearances, even if they lost? I don't think so.

 

But you can't just pretend the Twins didn't win 4/5 from 2002-2004/2006, either.

Edited July 13, 2011 by caulfield12

[Leonard Zelig]

Can we all just agree that "Things Florida Does" shouldn't count as precedent?

 

I was legitimately asking, because I couldn't remember if he got fired or quit. And no, I don't think we can all just agree on anything, ever.

[caulfield12]

It would still be a toss-up to me between Gardenhire and Acta.

 

Depends on how close the Indians finished to the Twins. If you go back to the expectations game, Minnesota was predicted to finish first by the majority of prognosticators, yes?

 

Not unlike Shapiro beating out KW for GM/Executive of the Year for the 2005 season.

[chisoxt]

It is his fault.

 

It's amazing how different the past two years might have been had Peavy just accepted the trade in May. No ankle injury = no compensation for it in 09. Meaning no mechanical screw ups in 2010. Meaning less stress on his arm, meaning possibly no detached lat. Who knows how much better the Sox might have been with a completely healthy and good Jake Peavy in 09 and 10?

Even prior to the injury Peavy had suffered a number of injuries, some of which I will admit were freakish in nature. Recall though that many serious pitching arm injuries start out being leg injuries (See Dizzy Dean).

 

Given all this, wouldn't you as a GM excercise more caution with someone like this Peavy given the large contract in place? Kenny needs to stop looking at the back of the baseball card when evaluating deals and consider what the player may provide to the team going forward.

[Balta1701]

Given all this, wouldn't you as a GM excercise more caution with someone like this Peavy given the large contract in place? Kenny needs to stop looking at the back of the baseball card when evaluating deals and consider what the player may provide to the team going forward.

Heyman, amongst others, has reported that there is a fairly substantial insurance policy covering Jake Peavy's contract which has already hit its deductible. Wouldn't you also factor that in when you're trading for an injury risk?

[Jordan4life_2007]

It would still be a toss-up to me between Gardenhire and Acta.

 

Depends on how close the Indians finished to the Twins. If you go back to the expectations game, Minnesota was predicted to finish first by the majority of prognosticators, yes?

 

Not unlike Shapiro beating out KW for GM/Executive of the Year for the 2005 season.

 

As of right now, the AL manager of the year is Joe Maddon. And it's not even up for discussion. They lost Crawford, Pena, their entire bullpen, Longoria missed like 35 games...and they're right in the thick of things in that monster of a division.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Jordan4life

[caulfield12]

Maybe.

 

The majority of sportswriters usually go for the "surprise" team that nobody expected to be in it at all.

 

With the Rays a contender in every season since 2008, they're probably a victim of their own success here. And maybe there's this idea that their minor league system has been so productive that they can just plug in new pieces and automatically be successful...like the Twins seemingly do.

 

 

[Greg Hibbard]

But you can't just pretend the Twins didn't win 4/5 from 2002-2004/2006, either.

 

And thus the double-standard continues. 2005 was eons ago for the White Sox organization when it comes to describing Guillen and Williams, but those 4/5 are recent enough to be included in evaluating Gardenhire and his organization.

 

How bout this - why don't we apply the same microscope to both?

[Balta1701]

Maybe.

 

The majority of sportswriters usually go for the "surprise" team that nobody expected to be in it at all.

 

With the Rays a contender in every season since 2008, they're probably a victim of their own success here. And maybe there's this idea that their minor league system has been so productive that they can just plug in new pieces and automatically be successful...like the Twins seemingly do.

Other than the Indians, is there really a surprise team anywhere in the AL right now?

[Jordan4life_2007]

Maybe.

 

The majority of sportswriters usually go for the "surprise" team that nobody expected to be in it at all.

 

With the Rays a contender in every season since 2008, they're probably a victim of their own success here. And maybe there's this idea that their minor league system has been so productive that they can just plug in new pieces and automatically be successful...like the Twins seemingly do.

 

I forgot to add Garza. And I challenge you to find any major publication that had the Rays finishing any better than a distant third going into the season.

[bigruss]

As of right now, the AL manager of the year is Joe Maddon. And it's not even up for discussion. They lost Crawford, Pena, their entire bullpen, Longoria missed like 35 games...and they're right in the thick of things in that monster of a division.

Well if the Twins come back and win the Central I really think Gardy wins it. That would be an incredible feat. Maddon and Acta have very legitimate cases though.

[Balta1701]

I forgot to add Garza. And I challenge you to find any major publication that had the Rays finishing any better than a distant third going into the season.

But...they're in third. Right where they were expected to be.

[Jordan4life_2007]

But...they're in third. Right where they were expected to be.

 

I know. But it was supposed to be a tug-of-war between the Yankees and Red Sox from day one. The Rays weren't even supposed to be in the picture. I'll just say that if the Rays finish with a better record than the Indians and/or within five games of the playoffs then Maddon wins it. If you want to ignore the difference between the divisions, something I refuse to do, then you could go with whatever crummy AL central team wins.

[Balta1701]

I know. But it was supposed to be a tug-of-war between the Yankees and Red Sox from day one. The Rays weren't even supposed to be in the picture. I'll just say that if the Rays finish with a better record than the Indians and/or within five games of the playoffs then Maddon wins it. If you want to ignore the difference between the divisions, something I refuse to do, then you could go with whatever crummy AL central team wins.

The White Sox are closer to the AL Central lead than the Rays are to the AL East lead.

[LittleHurt05]

As of right now, the AL manager of the year is Joe Maddon. And it's not even up for discussion. They lost Crawford, Pena, their entire bullpen, Longoria missed like 35 games...and they're right in the thick of things in that monster of a division.

 

Does Maddon deserve credit for their new re-made bullpen or does the GM? And it's not like they are lacking for talent and Maddon is doing it with bums. Everyone hypes up their young talent, aren't they just producing at the level everyone predicted?

[ILMOU]

MOTY clearly not a given, and likely won't be decided until Sept.

 

I'm guessing Acta would win if writers were to vote at this point in the season. Hurdle in NL.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Stan Bahnsen

[Jordan4life_2007]

The White Sox are closer to the AL Central lead than the Rays are to the AL East lead.

 

Hence the if you choose to ignore the quality of the divisions. We'd be in full sell mode right now if we were in the AL east.

 

Does Maddon deserve credit for their new re-made bullpen or does the GM? And it's not like they are lacking for talent and Maddon is doing it with bums. Everyone hypes up their young talent, aren't they just producing at the level everyone predicted?

 

Then give Friedman the GM of the year as well. Yes, the Rays have a ton of young talent in their minors. But for '11, this was supposed to be a 'down' year. And a top 5 player in the league, Longoria, has missed almost half the season. They were only 2 or 3 games out a couple weeks ago before a slow finish to the first half. Could you imagine if they could afford to take on payroll? Maddon is an excellent manager that I pay close attention to. But like I said, this is for right now. If the Rays fall off the continent in the second half then he's probably not as deserving. I just really admire the job he's done to this point.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Jordan4life_2007]

MOTY clearly not a given, and likely won't be decided until Sept.

 

I'm guessing Acta would win if writers were to vote at this point in the season. Hurdle in NL.

 

By what criteria is Acta more deserving than Maddon outside of his team is closer to first place in a clearly inferior division?

[Balta1701]

By what criteria is Acta more deserving than Maddon outside of his team is closer to first place in a clearly inferior division?

They have nearly identical records and one team is substantially better than they were last year or were expected to be this year, while the other team is worse than they were last year and about where they were expected to be this year.

[LittleHurt05]

Hence the if you choose to ignore the quality of the divisions. We'd be in full sell mode right now if we were in the AL east.

 

Then give Friedman the GM of the year as well. Yes, the Rays have a ton of young talent in their minors. But for '11, this was supposed to be a 'down' year. And a top 5 player in the league, Longoria, has missed almost half the season. They were only 2 or 3 games out a couple weeks ago before a slow finish to the first half. Could you imagine if they could afford to take on payroll? Maddon is an excellent manager that I pay close attention to. But like I said, this is for right now. If the Rays fall off the continent in the second half then he's probably not as deserving. I just really admire the job he's done to this point.

 

Maddon is definitely a great manager and I'm not trying to discount that. I just don't think he's a guaranteed shoo-in for this season's MOY. He still has Price, Shields, Hellickson leading off the rotation and there is talent in the lineup other than Longoria. People still had them finishing 3rd, and a few thought they had a chance to sneak in the WC. Cleveland is only 1.5 games worse and no one had them finishing anywhere near .500. And the divisions haven't affected their records much cause TB is 16-14 vs. the East, 15-12 vs. the Central, while CLE is 15-14 vs. East, 13-12 vs. Central, which is pretty similar.

[Jordan4life_2007]

They have nearly identical records and one team is substantially better than they were last year or were expected to be this year, while the other team is worse than they were last year and about where they were expected to be this year.

 

So the Rays have a better record than the Indians in a by far better division, lost 57 free agents, have been without their super star 3B for 35 games, and Acta is more deserving? If you look at it in a vacuum, yes, Acta is more deserving because they're closer to first place. But that's corny. And that gives me more reason to hate on the Sox. If they were playing at 85% of what I believe to be their optimal potential, we wouldn't even be debating this. As we'd be in first by at least 6 games or so.