POLL:Gordo, is he breaking out of that season long slump?

[Dick Allen]

Indeed it is on KW ultimately. However, we certainly couldn't do anything worse with a new batting coach could we? As they don't matter anyways as most of the Greg Walker defenders use as their argument to keep him around for life? Maybe just a change would prove to get something register with Rios and Dunn. They both have the talent. We won't make it to the post season without both of them producing.

 

I love how the Walker defenders talk about how much work he is putting in with these guys. As an owner of my own company for 12 years, I can tell you some of the best employees I got work only 4-6 hours a day. But they get it done and deliver their numbers, which is all that matters. Simultaneously I have people working 12-14 hrs a day producing less than desirable results and after a while, are on their way out. Think about it- the fact that he is spending 15 hrs a day with these guys producing garbage results is almost more embarrassing when you think about it...

If you look at the Sox pitching and hitting league rankings since Walker took over, the offense has ranked higher than the pitching 4 times and the pitching has ranked higher than the offense 4 times. I'd bet anything the White Sox spend more money per pitcher than per position player. Walker is fine. Your comparison to your company is hilarious, I guess you don't want Walker or any hitting coach working with players. If you look at the hitting results, it appears they need the extra work. Walker is willing to put that work in. Sign Albert Pujols and players like that and you could have me be the hitting coach, but the Sox can't do that.

[caulfield12]

Dick,

 

I'm not sure that comparison alone is fair.

 

The fact of the matter is that we lead the majors in quality starts since 2003. There's just no arguing with that, it's one of the most important stats you can possibly throw out there. Theoretically, that means you're giving your team a very good chance to win on all of those occasions.

 

It's true, when you remove Thomas, Valentin, Carlos Lee and Ordonez from the offense, it's going to be a lot less explosive. And even Crede, Rowand, Uribe, AJ (when he first came to Chicago), Everett, etc., were much bigger threats than the 5 "worst" guys in our line-up in 2011.

 

And it's really no secret that when the White Sox have pitched very well (2005-2006, 2008, 2010-2011 for long stretches) it's kept our team competitive.

 

 

As I've said before, a lot of this Walker angst is about Beckham's "regression." There's probably nobody on our team outside of Dunn and Rios that are incredibly off what their normal expected numbers would be...it's really just those two guys. Those situations probably have one million posts attached to them alone.

 

Here's the way I look at it. Let's say Ozzie resigned and announced he was going to be managing the Marlins in 2012.

 

Who would you rather bring back, Cooper or Walker? Neither? Both? Just Walker?

 

 

If you looked at where our starters were in 2007 (Contreras on his last legs with us as a starter), especially Danks and Floyd, they've made tremendous strides as major leaguers. Most of us didn't think we'd get much at all out of Floyd, and we certainly didn't in the beginning.

 

You know the list. Thornton, Jenks, Loaiza, Contreras (based on expectations when he was acquired from NY), Garland, Clayton Richard, Marte, Floyd, Danks, Santos, Humber...Edwin Jackson last year, and maybe again this year now.

 

It's not really Cooper's fault that KW was paying Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland, Javy...etc., about 40% of the money that was going into the roster. Pitching wins games.

 

If you want to point at his "failures," you have a much shorter list. Javy, although in all fairness, blaming Cooper for Javy....well no pitching coach in baseball's gotten through to him on a consistent basis. Then you have MacDougal, Masset, Aardsma and Sisco. Interestingly, all those pitchers supposedly were stubborn to listen to him and/or were reluctant to add other offspeed pitches to their repertoire.

 

It just seems like Cooper can make a bigger difference with the individual pitchers than Walker can as the hitting coach. Different jobs, different methods and evaluations. But it's a lot easier to change Greg Walker than it would be to dump Rios, Dunn, Teahen, Beckham, Morel, etc.

 

 

[gosox41]

I don't know if he makes it to .270, but he has been on a slow and steady climb for a while now. He is coming around for sure.

 

 

He better be. We all had high hopes for this guy. Anytime he wants to play to his potenital is fine with me.

 

 

Bob

[Dick Allen]

Dick,

 

I'm not sure that comparison alone is fair.

 

The fact of the matter is that we lead the majors in quality starts since 2003. There's just no arguing with that, it's one of the most important stats you can possibly throw out there. Theoretically, that means you're giving your team a very good chance to win on all of those occasions.

 

It's true, when you remove Thomas, Valentin, Carlos Lee and Ordonez from the offense, it's going to be a lot less explosive. And even Crede, Rowand, Uribe, AJ (when he first came to Chicago), Everett, etc., were much bigger threats than the 5 "worst" guys in our line-up in 2011.

 

And it's really no secret that when the White Sox have pitched very well (2005-2006, 2008, 2010-2011 for long stretches) it's kept our team competitive.

 

 

As I've said before, a lot of this Walker angst is about Beckham's "regression." There's probably nobody on our team outside of Dunn and Rios that are incredibly off what their normal expected numbers would be...it's really just those two guys. Those situations probably have one million posts attached to them alone.

 

Here's the way I look at it. Let's say Ozzie resigned and announced he was going to be managing the Marlins in 2012.

 

Who would you rather bring back, Cooper or Walker? Neither? Both? Just Walker?

 

 

If you looked at where our starters were in 2007 (Contreras on his last legs with us as a starter), especially Danks and Floyd, they've made tremendous strides as major leaguers. Most of us didn't think we'd get much at all out of Floyd, and we certainly didn't in the beginning.

 

You know the list. Thornton, Jenks, Loaiza, Contreras (based on expectations when he was acquired from NY), Garland, Clayton Richard, Marte, Floyd, Danks, Santos, Humber...Edwin Jackson last year, and maybe again this year now.

 

It's not really Cooper's fault that KW was paying Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland, Javy...etc., about 40% of the money that was going into the roster. Pitching wins games.

 

If you want to point at his "failures," you have a much shorter list. Javy, although in all fairness, blaming Cooper for Javy....well no pitching coach in baseball's gotten through to him on a consistent basis. Then you have MacDougal, Masset, Aardsma and Sisco. Interestingly, all those pitchers supposedly were stubborn to listen to him and/or were reluctant to add other offspeed pitches to their repertoire.

 

It just seems like Cooper can make a bigger difference with the individual pitchers than Walker can as the hitting coach. Different jobs, different methods and evaluations. But it's a lot easier to change Greg Walker than it would be to dump Rios, Dunn, Teahen, Beckham, Morel, etc.

When Javy Vazquez sucked, who blamed Cooper? When John Danks was 0-8, who blamed Cooper. When Contreras wasn't pitching well, who blamed Cooper? They gave him credit when they pitched well. Its exactly the opposite with Walker and everyone knows it. Apparently most people believe everyone is a .400 ba 1.100 OPS guy until speak to Greg Walker and every pitcher is a 8.00 ERA guy until they speak to Don Cooper. If the Sox had lost today 20-1 Greg Walker should be fired would have been attached to at least 25 posts. Its beyond ridiculous. A lot of hitters have done very well with Greg Walker as the hitting coach. He's not the problem.

[greg775]

Decent Cowley article on Walker on the Sun Times Website.

 

He no like us Internet people, though. Catch the shot.

 

"Now, sit down and take a deep breath, White Sox fans. As long as Ozzie Guillen is manager and has a say on the makeup of his staff, No. 29 will stay on Walker’s back.

 

So all your calls to the radio shows, all your little posts on the fan forums and all the yelling at your dog (“Rex, you’re a better hitting coach than this guy!’’), go ahead and save it."

 

 

Some of the posts aren't 'little' Joe, some are rather long.

[sircaffey]

Actually, I yell at my dog that he s***s better stuff than the cow turds Cowley produces.

[caulfield12]

When Javy Vazquez sucked, who blamed Cooper? When John Danks was 0-8, who blamed Cooper. When Contreras wasn't pitching well, who blamed Cooper? They gave him credit when they pitched well. Its exactly the opposite with Walker and everyone knows it. Apparently most people believe everyone is a .400 ba 1.100 OPS guy until speak to Greg Walker and every pitcher is a 8.00 ERA guy until they speak to Don Cooper. If the Sox had lost today 20-1 Greg Walker should be fired would have been attached to at least 25 posts. Its beyond ridiculous. A lot of hitters have done very well with Greg Walker as the hitting coach. He's not the problem.

 

 

Those are extenuating circumstances.

 

For most of that time, Danks was pitching pretty decently, we all know his offensive support is the worst or among the worst of any MLB pitcher since he's been here. So, in a way, Walker will even get blamed for Danks being 0-8, right? Because if he pitched for the Yankees during that timeframe, or Rangers, or Red Sox, he'd be 5-3 or 6-2.

 

It's not like he went all John Lackey...who by the way, has a similar record to Danks.

 

Contreras was never the same pitcher after his injury, particularly the back and hip problems. Cooper worked on changing his arm angles to relieve the pressure on his back, but he lost command of his fastball and forkball compared to 05-06. And he never got back that dominating fastball...the 95-97 MPH version. After the injury, he was no longer confident in the FB and overused the forkball and started to nibble.

 

I think EVERYONE blamed Javy's lack of cojones and "testicular fortitude" for his own personal troubles and demons.

 

 

[Quin]

Hey Cowley, why do you suck as a journalist?

[JohnCangelosi]

If you look at the Sox pitching and hitting league rankings since Walker took over, the offense has ranked higher than the pitching 4 times and the pitching has ranked higher than the offense 4 times. I'd bet anything the White Sox spend more money per pitcher than per position player. Walker is fine. Your comparison to your company is hilarious, I guess you don't want Walker or any hitting coach working with players. If you look at the hitting results, it appears they need the extra work. Walker is willing to put that work in. Sign Albert Pujols and players like that and you could have me be the hitting coach, but the Sox can't do that.

When our offense was going good we'd still have issues with scoring 8 runs one game and then 1 the next. We've never had a consistent scoring attack since 2005 offensively, and the onus needs to be put somewhere.

 

Secondly, I agree with Caulfield that part of the hatred towards Walker stems from his inability to get Gordo back to anything close to where he was when he entered the league with HIS OWN SWING.

 

If you want to simply ignore this fact to support your own viewpoint, so be it, but the proof is in the pudding IMO. Gordon started with his own swing and now has been a mental midget for the better part of 2 years.

 

And I also take issues with the fact that when Rios hit well with us it was at the very beginning of his tenure with Walker, before he got into his head, as well. These are just facts. Is it all Walkers fault? No. I don't blame him for the debacle Dunn has been, but a change of any sort would certainly be welcome there. The reality is it seems he cannot get out of his own way- his intentions are good, and he is a hard worker, but he ISN'T PERFORMING and for that he should be fired.

 

Of course Ozzie is so pig headed that he won't change anything that clearly isn't working, with the exception of blaming it all on the players and pulling a few of them from their roles. We've all seen the unwillingness to make any obvious changes from this organization and that is probably the most frustrating thing about it when you break it down.

[Dick Allen]

When our offense was going good we'd still have issues with scoring 8 runs one game and then 1 the next. We've never had a consistent scoring attack since 2005 offensively, and the onus needs to be put somewhere.

 

Secondly, I agree with Caulfield that part of the hatred towards Walker stems from his inability to get Gordo back to anything close to where he was when he entered the league with HIS OWN SWING.

 

If you want to simply ignore this fact to support your own viewpoint, so be it, but the proof is in the pudding IMO. Gordon started with his own swing and now has been a mental midget for the better part of 2 years.

 

And I also take issues with the fact that when Rios hit well with us it was at the very beginning of his tenure with Walker, before he got into his head, as well. These are just facts. Is it all Walkers fault? No. I don't blame him for the debacle Dunn has been, but a change of any sort would certainly be welcome there. The reality is it seems he cannot get out of his own way- his intentions are good, and he is a hard worker, but he ISN'T PERFORMING and for that he should be fired.

 

Of course Ozzie is so pig headed that he won't change anything that clearly isn't working, with the exception of blaming it all on the players and pulling a few of them from their roles. We've all seen the unwillingness to make any obvious changes from this organization and that is probably the most frustrating thing about it when you break it down.

 

"Gordo" started with his own swing and Walker ruined him? Beckham changed his swing from the time he was drafted, and most scouts who thought he would be a bust changed their minds. He also started out hitting about .100, until he got very hot, guess what, working with Walker. Get your facts straight. Rios was acquired on waivers because he sucked. He initially sucked with the White Sox, worked with Walker over the winter and had a great first half of 2010. He has fallen apart since. You call players "mental midgets" and then blame coaches for their failures. The guys that work for you and work 60 hour weeks but can't get the job done, how is that their fault? Shouldn't it be yours? You should fire yourself.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Dick Allen

[lostfan]

If I was to make a list of 5 reasons I want Greg Walker fired, "So 1/3 of Soxtalk's threads are not about Greg Walker" would probably be #3. I know that's not a very good reason... don't judge me

[Dick Allen]

Those are extenuating circumstances.

 

For most of that time, Danks was pitching pretty decently, we all know his offensive support is the worst or among the worst of any MLB pitcher since he's been here. So, in a way, Walker will even get blamed for Danks being 0-8, right? Because if he pitched for the Yankees during that timeframe, or Rangers, or Red Sox, he'd be 5-3 or 6-2.

 

It's not like he went all John Lackey...who by the way, has a similar record to Danks.

 

Contreras was never the same pitcher after his injury, particularly the back and hip problems. Cooper worked on changing his arm angles to relieve the pressure on his back, but he lost command of his fastball and forkball compared to 05-06. And he never got back that dominating fastball...the 95-97 MPH version. After the injury, he was no longer confident in the FB and overused the forkball and started to nibble.

 

I think EVERYONE blamed Javy's lack of cojones and "testicular fortitude" for his own personal troubles and demons.

Contreras did get his fastball back. When he went to Colorado. In fact he said he wanted to take the Colorado pitching coach with him wherever he went. Could you imagine if a struggling young White Sox hitter got traded and then dominated the league? Walker would be even a bigger doofus. Dan Hudson and Clayton Richard struggle with the White Sox and immediately become better when going to other teams. Any Cooper bashing? Both even said their new routines were very different than they were in Chicago.

 

If a guy goes 0-4 and you want to blame Walker, fine. But if you do, if a guy gets lit up, you should blame Don Cooper. As I posted several days ago, the pitching and hitting results over the years are just about even. I'm sure someone will post USCF is a hitters park, but the pitchers have done better at home than on the road, so really that point would be moot.

 

You just said Javy lacking stones is on him, yet when its time to bash Walker, Beckham according to some, a "mental midget" is Walker's fault. Makes no sense. Remember, when you hit, most of the time you fail, when you pitch, even if you're bad most of the time you get people out. Some were up in arms that Beckham fanned twice against Justin Verlander the other night.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

Decent Cowley article on Walker on the Sun Times Website.

 

He no like us Internet people, though. Catch the shot.

 

"Now, sit down and take a deep breath, White Sox fans. As long as Ozzie Guillen is manager and has a say on the makeup of his staff, No. 29 will stay on Walker’s back.

 

So all your calls to the radio shows, all your little posts on the fan forums and all the yelling at your dog (“Rex, you’re a better hitting coach than this guy!’’), go ahead and save it."

 

 

Some of the posts aren't 'little' Joe, some are rather long.

 

Must.Defend.Guillen.To.Keep.Only.Source.

[southsider2k5]

If I was to make a list of 5 reasons I want Greg Walker fired, "So 1/3 of Soxtalk's threads are not about Greg Walker" would probably be #3. I know that's not a very good reason... don't judge me

 

They will just turn into the next hitting coaches threads.

[JohnCangelosi]

"Gordo" started with his own swing and Walker ruined him? Beckham changed his swing from the time he was drafted, and most scouts who thought he would be a bust changed their minds. He also started out hitting about .100, until he got very hot, guess what, working with Walker. Get your facts straight. Rios was acquired on waivers because he sucked. He initially sucked with the White Sox, worked with Walker over the winter and had a great first half of 2010. He has fallen apart since. You call players "mental midgets" and then blame coaches for their failures. The guys that work for you and work 60 hour weeks but can't get the job done, how is that their fault? Shouldn't it be yours? You should fire yourself.

Beckham was no different than most every other rookie in his first few weeks with butterflies and still getting adjusted to the show- you know you should throw those first few weeks out because of that, but no, you'll conveniently use them to support your baseless opinion. His swing didn't change from the minute he came up to the end of the 2009 season, so let's quit the nonsense that Walker helped him out of his early rut which 90% of rookies go through if not 100%. The truth is once Walker got time to get inside his head he hasn't developed at nearly the rate we expected out of him.

 

I gotta believe that Gordon has gone through mental midget phases BECAUSE OF WALKER. Yes, coaches can get inside of young players heads. He clearly has the talent, but is getting in his own way, probably overwhelmed with mechanics etc versus just reacting and swinging the bat like he did when he came up in 2009.

 

But you're right, Walker is great, Ozzie makes all the right decisions, and Walker's record of track record of success in developing young talent is flawless. Politics may be a good future role for you or perhaps you can join Rongey on the post game show.

 

Regarding my employees, it is my responsibility to get the right people in the right spot and let them do their thing. When I miscalculate, I ADJUST AND MAKE CHANGES. But in a world where performance doesn't matter and you have a job for life (like working for the White Sox or being a Post Office Employee) then you can sit there and blame others for your failures and take no responsibility. Isn't that convenient. In my world, I am not afforded that luxury, as I actually have to deliver otherwise I'll be on the street. Too bad it's not the same for the White Sox or we might see a team that actually plays up to its ability and gives the fans what they deserve.

[The Ginger Kid]

Nice to see some optimism on the board for a change

 

[caulfield12]

But it's really hard to compare Contreras the starter with Contreras as a set-up reliever or closer.

 

I would be a lot more convinced if Hudson or Richard put up those numbers in the AL West or even our own division.

 

Remember when we had the theory way back when that Kip Wells could never have had the success he did with the Pirates if he was still on the White Sox?

If you look at the ballparks, and the lack of offense in that division (especially with Posey out), it's hard to draw any definite conclusions.

 

I don't recall most of SoxTalk clamoring for Richard to be a permanent member of the starting rotation. He was always seen as a guy who would really struggle the 2nd or 3rd time through an order.

 

Let's put it this way.

 

If you could trade Hudson/Peavy for the remainder of the season and take back Hudson/Richard in their places, would you do it? Not talking about 2012-2013-2014....just the next 70 or so games.

 

I know that I wouldn't.

 

And Jon Garland even looked good at times the last couple of years pitching out there. Heck, John Ely. Could either of those guys actually pitch for the White Sox, or Charles Haeger?

 

 

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Beckham was no different than most every other rookie in his first few weeks with butterflies and still getting adjusted to the show- you know you should throw those first few weeks out because of that, but no, you'll conveniently use them to support your baseless opinion. His swing didn't change from the minute he came up to the end of the 2009 season, so let's quit the nonsense that Walker helped him out of his early rut which 90% of rookies go through if not 100%. The truth is once Walker got time to get inside his head he hasn't developed at nearly the rate we expected out of him.

 

I gotta believe that Gordon has gone through mental midget phases BECAUSE OF WALKER. Yes, coaches can get inside of young players heads. He clearly has the talent, but is getting in his own way, probably overwhelmed with mechanics etc versus just reacting and swinging the bat like he did when he came up in 2009.

 

But you're right, Walker is great, Ozzie makes all the right decisions, and Walker's record of track record of success in developing young talent is flawless. Politics may be a good future role for you or perhaps you can join Rongey on the post game show.

 

Regarding my employees, it is my responsibility to get the right people in the right spot and let them do their thing. When I miscalculate, I ADJUST AND MAKE CHANGES. But in a world where performance doesn't matter and you have a job for life (like working for the White Sox or being a Post Office Employee) then you can sit there and blame others for your failures and take no responsibility. Isn't that convenient. In my world, I am not afforded that luxury, as I actually have to deliver otherwise I'll be on the street. Too bad it's not the same for the White Sox or we might see a team that actually plays up to its ability and gives the fans what they deserve.

 

Too bad we can't fire posters for continually being bad.

[caulfield12]

I'll hand it to Dick Allen, he's always been consistent in his defense of Walker.

 

You gotta admire that, at least.

 

He raises lots of valid points. Not that many of us necessarily agree, but it's healthy to have that debate instead of just a one-sided crucifixion (unless it has to do with Dunn/Rios).

 

 

[JohnCangelosi]

I'll hand it to Dick Allen, he's always been consistent in his defense of Walker.

 

You gotta admire that, at least.

 

He raises lots of valid points. Not that many of us necessarily agree, but it's healthy to have that debate instead of just a one-sided crucifixion (unless it has to do with Dunn/Rios).

And even I will agree with that as well.

[ILMOU]

I don't know that Walk is a major problem with the Sox offense, but to imply that he's been as good as his craft as Coop is frankly ridiculous, IMO. For my purposes of evaluation, let's look at the players who have who have spent significant time in other orgs. but had their greatest success with the Sox.

 

In the Coop column:

Thornton

Humber

Contreras

Loaiza

Garland

Cotts

Pollitte

Jenks

Floyd

and others I'm certainly forgetting

In the Walk column:

Quentin, maybe Uribe. Am I forgetting anyone, cause seriously I can't think of any. Paulie, maybe, but he was just getting his feet wet in the Reds/Dodger orgs.

 

You've made some good points in defense of Walk, but the criticism of Coop is rather hollow. He's second only to Duncan, and it's not a distant second.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Stan Bahnsen

[caulfield12]

Hitters who have excelled under Walker

 

Dye

Thome (for his age)

Lillibridge (well, for 2 months this year...compared with Braves)

Konerko

Quentin

Ramirez (compared to expectations upon signing)

Rowand (compared to most of the last 3-4 years, he had a couple of really good years in Philly when healthy)

Crede

Uribe

Pablo Ozuna

 

[ILMOU]

Hitters who have excelled under Walker

 

Dye

Thome (for his age)

Lillibridge (well, for 2 months this year...compared with Braves)

Konerko

Quentin

Ramirez (compared to expectations upon signing)

Rowand (compared to most of the last 3-4 years, he had a couple of really good years in Philly when healthy)

Crede

Uribe

Pablo Ozuna

 

I'll give you Quentin, and maybe Uribe. (and made the edit above) The others don't really meet the criteria I established. Dye had a couple of monster years with KC, and was finally, fully healthy again when we got him, though I can see a case being made there.

[southsider2k5]

A better question would be who has left Walker and gotten significantly better as a hitter?

[Balta1701]

A better question would be who has left Walker and gotten significantly better as a hitter?

Thome, Thomas, Rowand, Uribe for starters.