McKeon: "GUILLEN WOULD BE AN IDEAL FIT"

[greg775]

You have absolutely no proof that this is correct. Our next manager might be better, might be worse...but one thing I'm confident in saying is that Ozzie needs a change of scenery and the team needs a new voice at the top. Ozzie should do much better managing in the NL...and boy, he'll love slappy Bonafacio at the top of the order.

 

Well, I'd say odds are 50-50 at least it'll be Cora.

Is Buddy Bell still in the picture? He is blah.

 

What manager is beloved by his/her fanbase for his in-game decisions?

Cmon. You lose a game the fans can blame the manager. Lose a few in a row and fans usually want the manager's head pinpointing all the "dumb moves" that cost the team games when in reality it's all second guessing.

My guess is the next guy will not be loved. And that guy could be Cora. Doesn't Jerry like him? Isn't Jerry loyal?

[lasttriptotulsa]

Well, I'd say odds are 50-50 at least it'll be Cora.

Is Buddy Bell still in the picture? He is blah.

 

What manager is beloved by his/her fanbase for his in-game decisions?

Cmon. You lose a game the fans can blame the manager. Lose a few in a row and fans usually want the manager's head pinpointing all the "dumb moves" that cost the team games when in reality it's all second guessing.

My guess is the next guy will not be loved. And that guy could be Cora. Doesn't Jerry like him? Isn't Jerry loyal?

 

My guess is that if Ozzie is canned, Cora is out the door with him. With many of Ozzie's decisions, its not just second guessing, they were just down right stupid. I can think of at least two occasions this year where we had a guy on first with Paulie on deck and Ozzie bunts him to second. That opens up first base and takes the bat out of Konerko's hands to bring up Adam Dunn who has struggled mightily this year. I mean come on think about it.

[caulfield12]

If KW REALLY wants to alienate his fanbase, he'll bring in Cora or Bell.

 

Nobody in the world would be excited about either of those guys. It would cost us season ticket renewals. Whether it's fair or not, there's the perception that he's "too close to Ozzie" or would mirror the Guillen style as a manager, which is definitely not what this franchise needs. Plus, he's been passed over for a number of jobs that opened up when the White Sox as an organization actually looked like they had it all together (2005-2008) and knew what they were doing. Finally, I don't think he'd consider "crossing" Guillen after being his loyal/faithful lieutenant for so long. Obviously, Walker wouldn't stay with Cora, would he? Hopefully, he'd go with Guillen. I'd wonder if maybe Ozzie would like to see Cora fail (and that's more likely than not unless KW pulls a rabbit out of the hat again like before 2008) just so he could say "told you so, Sox fans!"

 

Greg, your experience argument only counts to an extent. We all live in a "what have you done for me lately" universe. In fact, Ozzie had very little actual managing background (just as a 3rd/1st base coach) when he was hired.

 

I'm trying to think of an analogy and maybe it doesn't fit, lol. Let's say it's a former president who came in with very little experience but was "tremendously" successful and popular in the earlier part of his career, but things kind of fell apart at the end of his assignment. Would you want him to come back? Heck, there's a very good chance that our current president won't be re-elected because so many people are scared and uncertain about their economic futures. Let's say President "B" was manager of the White Sox from 2004-2007, and President "O" was manager of the White Sox from 2008-2011...the arguments against EITHER manager being provided an opportunity to manage the White Sox in 2012 would be very difficult to SELL to the White Sox fanbase. Fans (and voters) always want the fresh face and don't have the patience to ride things out.

 

Look at what happened with LaRussa, for another example. He wasn't given nearly as much time as Ozzie after having great early success turning things around as a new manager.

Edited July 19, 2011 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

They do.

 

All six of them.

[southsider2k5]

Something very telling was the Tigers announcer saying on Fox on Saturday that "Ozzie Guillen to the Marlins after this season is the worst kept secret in baseball".

 

Unless the Marlins are wiling to pay up, I don't see it happening.

[greg775]

If KW REALLY wants to alienate his fanbase, he'll bring in Cora or Bell.

 

Nobody in the world would be excited about either of those guys. It would cost us season ticket renewals. Whether it's fair or not, there's the perception that he's "too close to Ozzie" or would mirror the Guillen style as a manager, which is definitely not what this franchise needs. Plus, he's been passed over for a number of jobs that opened up when the White Sox as an organization actually looked like they had it all together (2005-2008) and knew what they were doing. Finally, I don't think he'd consider "crossing" Guillen after being his loyal/faithful lieutenant for so long. Obviously, Walker wouldn't stay with Cora, would he? Hopefully, he'd go with Guillen. I'd wonder if maybe Ozzie would like to see Cora fail (and that's more likely than not unless KW pulls a rabbit out of the hat again like before 2008) just so he could say "told you so, Sox fans!"

 

Greg, your experience argument only counts to an extent. We all live in a "what have you done for me lately" universe. In fact, Ozzie had very little actual managing background (just as a 3rd/1st base coach) when he was hired.

 

I'm trying to think of an analogy and maybe it doesn't fit, lol. Let's say it's a former president who came in with very little experience but was "tremendously" successful and popular in the earlier part of his career, but things kind of fell apart at the end of his assignment. Would you want him to come back? Heck, there's a very good chance that our current president won't be re-elected because so many people are scared and uncertain about their economic futures. Let's say President "B" was manager of the White Sox from 2004-2007, and President "O" was manager of the White Sox from 2008-2011...the arguments against EITHER manager being provided an opportunity to manage the White Sox in 2012 would be very difficult to SELL to the White Sox fanbase. Fans (and voters) always want the fresh face and don't have the patience to ride things out.

 

Look at what happened with LaRussa, for another example. He wasn't given nearly as much time as Ozzie after having great early success turning things around as a new manager.

 

Decent analogy.

I think most people agree LaRussa got better and better as he aged.

It's a shame to waste Ozzie's learning years here then let him go manage elsewhere.

Plus he already has a WS title under his belt.

The guy has some postseason magic which shouldn't be discounted.

[Balta1701]

Unless the Marlins are wiling to pay up, I don't see it happening.

Unless the Sox win the central, I do.

[southsider2k5]

Unless the Sox win the central, I do.

 

If the stories about what is going behind the scenes in the front office are true, I don't at all. I see kenny getting kicked upstairs and Hahn promoted.

[caulfield12]

And that post-season magic is limited to a once-in-a-century occurence at this point.

 

We just can't actually GET to the playoffs enough for that POSSIBLE magic to be worth waiting for again.

 

I'm starting to think Gardenhire and Guillen should just switch jobs. Then nobody would be happy, probably.

[justBLAZE]

It is so talked about, I would be surprised if it doesn't happen.

[nickofypres]

I wouldn't call up Viciedo out of fear that Walker taints him.

[TheBigHurt]

1.) I want him to stay. When all is said and done, he'll be the best manager we ever had. Sad he has to leave at this stage of his career. His best years are ahead of him. Basically players win games and his players have failed him this year. I wish him well in Florida.

 

You seem to mindlessly think because he was our manager in 2005 that he's a great manager, which is utterly ridiculous. That team was magic. Even Ozzie's bumbling couldn't stop the Sox from winning games that year.

 

And again (since you didn't respond to my last post), 2005 does NOT give him a free pass. Six years later, you're still defending Ozzie on account of a World Series as if it grants him full immunity for the rest of his life with this organization. It doesn't, period.

 

 

This shouldn't be hard to understand, greg.

[greg775]

You seem to mindlessly think because he was our manager in 2005 that he's a great manager, which is utterly ridiculous. That team was magic. Even Ozzie's bumbling couldn't stop the Sox from winning games that year.

 

And again (since you didn't respond to my last post), 2005 does NOT give him a free pass. Six years later, you're still defending Ozzie on account of a World Series as if it grants him full immunity for the rest of his life with this organization. It doesn't, period.

 

 

This shouldn't be hard to understand, greg.

 

First of all, I disagree with those who say, "even Ozzie's bumbling couldn't stop the Sox from winning games that year." That frankly is B.S. We were a steamroller thru the playoffs; some were calling us one of the best teams of all time because of that postseason run. He did a masterful job. Uh, a lot of those games were close games, especially in the Series. He was a masterful manager.

 

2.) You are right 2005 doesn't give him a free pass. I won't cry at his firing. He probably deserves the axe for our s***ty start with this payroll and our continuing s***ty play.

I don't care if they fire him.

 

What I AM saying is a.) in 30 years we'll remember him as our best manager, quite possibly the only one to lead us to a WS. The odds of us winning another if baseball remains this way finance wise, are terrible. I'm saying go ahead and fire him, but it is sad because he is young and he's only going to get better IMO.

His team let him down horribly this season; he's not a bad manager. I think he's going to be in baseball until he' s 70. Sad it won't be with us, but yes, he prolly deserves to be axed for this season. Interesting that the DH situation is the thing that finally got him fired. Kotsay, then Dunn. If we had some offense from that position, we might uh, win.

KW deserves just as much blame as Oz if not more IMO. Peavy? Nice move. Rios? Great.

 

I found your first post. You said to me: "greg... 2005 was 6 damn years ago. This is not 2005 anymore. This whole attitude that Ozzie is entitled to being here simply because of that title is entirely illogical. I don't know what it will take for you to understand this."

 

I agree. Caufield made a good point comparing this to a president.

One can do a good job one term and not the next.

I agree he probably should get the boot from the Sox office for this team's shameful performance. But I would like him to come back at some point, cause I'm convinced he's good.

 

I would almost approve of Jerry telling him his entire staff has to go and give Ozzie a couple more years once KW gets moved upstairs and Hahn (sp) gets him some real players. But I can handle his firing. Yes this team's unbelievably awful season is on him partly.

Edited July 20, 2011 by greg775

[TheBigHurt]

First of all, I disagree with those who say, "even Ozzie's bumbling couldn't stop the Sox from winning games that year." That frankly is B.S.

 

No it isn't. Not to anyone who watched games that season. We caught lightning in a bottle. That team was not supposed to perform that well, not by a longshot. Look at teams like the Yankees. For a long time it didn't really matter who their manager was. They were just too good. Once the Sox came back to earth it became pretty obvious pretty quick that Ozzie was a dimwit.

 

 

We were a steamroller thru the playoffs; some were calling us one of the best teams of all time because of that postseason run. He did a masterful job. Uh, a lot of those games were close games, especially in the Series. He was a masterful manager.

 

So simply winning, without taking any ACTUAL criteria into account, makes the manager masterful... no matter what. Piss-poor logic, greg. Sorry.

 

 

2.) You are right 2005 doesn't give him a free pass. I won't cry at his firing. He probably deserves the axe for our s***ty start with this payroll and our continuing s***ty play.

I don't care if they fire him.

 

You already tried to counter the idea we'd be better off without him by saying "He won us a WS title." So you're kinda contradicting yourself. I just think you don't know any better.

 

 

What I AM saying is a.) in 30 years we'll remember him as our best manager...

 

Uh... no, we won't. You will, I'm sure... but not all of us.

 

[greg775]

No it isn't. Not to anyone who watched games that season. We caught lightning in a bottle. That team was not supposed to perform that well, not by a longshot. Look at teams like the Yankees. For a long time it didn't really matter who their manager was. They were just too good. Once the Sox came back to earth it became pretty obvious pretty quick that Ozzie was a dimwit.

 

So simply winning, without taking any ACTUAL criteria into account, makes the manager masterful... no matter what. Piss-poor logic, greg. Sorry.

 

You already tried to counter the idea we'd be better off without him by saying "He won us a WS title." So you're kinda contradicting yourself. I just think you don't know any better.

 

Uh... no, we won't. You will, I'm sure... but not all of us.

 

1.) Oh, cmon Hurt, you are giving the manager of a WS team no credit. Oz will be better off in Florida with a lot of fans agreeing with you. Our fanbase doesn't deserve him if fans truthfully believe we won in spite of him. My gosh I wish I could be the type of fan you are. I truly believe you are misguided to think the skipper, the man who makes out the lineups, the man who makes all the calls had nothing to do with our success and was a 'dimwit.' You want him gone. Fine. But IMO your comments about that season are misguided. No credit to the manager? Well I'll go the other way and say he did a GREAT job managing that team and the players were great as well.

 

2.) You want me to go through all those close games in the postseason and state my case for Ozzie's managing? Please. Do we really want me to do that? We lost one game that postseason and many of the games were close. I think he did a nice job.

 

3.) He has the last laugh. He has Chicago's only WS title since the dark ages and he's gonna be let go. That truly is laughable.

4.) Maybe I contradict myself but yes he deserves the boot for his performance this year. But I'll never say he's not a great manager and I think it's sad he'll be managing in Florida next year. End of a good era.

[hogan873]

1.) Oh, cmon Hurt, you are giving the manager of a WS team no credit. Oz will be better off in Florida with a lot of fans agreeing with you. Our fanbase doesn't deserve him if fans truthfully believe we won in spite of him. My gosh I wish I could be the type of fan you are. I truly believe you are misguided to think the skipper, the man who makes out the lineups, the man who makes all the calls had nothing to do with our success and was a 'dimwit.' You want him gone. Fine. But IMO your comments about that season are misguided. No credit to the manager? Well I'll go the other way and say he did a GREAT job managing that team and the players were great as well.

 

2.) You want me to go through all those close games in the postseason and state my case for Ozzie's managing? Please. Do we really want me to do that? We lost one game that postseason and many of the games were close. I think he did a nice job.

 

3.) He has the last laugh. He has Chicago's only WS title since the dark ages and he's gonna be let go. That truly is laughable.

4.) Maybe I contradict myself but yes he deserves the boot for his performance this year. But I'll never say he's not a great manager and I think it's sad he'll be managing in Florida next year. End of a good era.

Again, Greg, I commend your unending support of Ozzie. But I just don't understand it. You clearly state that it's the players' fault that this year is so bad, but you give Ozzie all the credit for 2005. I think we all realize that no amount of blunders and mis-managing by Ozzie will change your mind that he was the best manager the Sox ever had. But he manages this team like it's an NL team, he makes lineups that often don't make sense, and he falls in love with some players and plays them over better candidates (Kotsay, Pierre).

 

If Ozzie is gone some time this season or after this season, many of us will be happy. You'll be sad, and you'll firmly believe that the next team with Ozzie at the helm will be the next best team. To each his own, I guess.

[BigSqwert]

I don't know why you guys bother with greg. I posted this in another thread to him and it still holds true. You will never change his opinion on Ozzie:

You're the kind of guy that would praise Ozzie in this scenario:

 

Top of the 9th, 2 outs, at home against the Twins. We are up by 3 runs. Twins have the bases loaded with Cuddyer up. Ozzie brings in Ohman instead of Santos even though Santos hasn't pitched in 2 days. Cuddyer hits a double on the 1st pitch. 2 runs score...the guy at first makes it all the way home and is safe but is ultimately called out because he missed the 3rd base bag when rounding it. Sox get a lucky win because of a weird play. For some odd reason you think Ozzie made a great decision of bringing in Ohman over Santos because we somehow won in spite of the terrible managing.

[hogan873]

I don't know why you guys bother with greg. I posted this in another thread to him and it still holds true. You will never change his opinion on Ozzie:

Wow, you hit the nail on the head there. I could definitely see that scenario happening.

[TheBigHurt]

1.) Oh, cmon Hurt, you are giving the manager of a WS team no credit. Oz will be better off in Florida with a lot of fans agreeing with you. Our fanbase doesn't deserve him if fans truthfully believe we won in spite of him. My gosh I wish I could be the type of fan you are. I truly believe you are misguided to think the skipper, the man who makes out the lineups, the man who makes all the calls had nothing to do with our success and was a 'dimwit.' You want him gone. Fine. But IMO your comments about that season are misguided. No credit to the manager? Well I'll go the other way and say he did a GREAT job managing that team and the players were great as well.

 

I never said I gave him NO credit. However you are giving him too much. You keep saying if we win that means it was good managing. I won't refreain from telling you flat-out that that's utterly ridiculous.

 

 

2.) You want me to go through all those close games in the postseason and state my case for Ozzie's managing? Please. Do we really want me to do that? We lost one game that postseason and many of the games were close. I think he did a nice job.

 

I believe I've already (in my tenure here) gone through WAY MORE scenarios detailing his idiocy to you over the years... TONS OF THEM. It's pretty obvious a guy who would call a walk to a .145 hitter but not do so to a reigning MVP in the 8th inning with a 1 run lead, 2 outs and a base open is missing something upstairs... and this type of scenario is very common with Ozzie.

 

 

3.) He has the last laugh. He has Chicago's only WS title since the dark ages and he's gonna be let go. That truly is laughable.

4.) Maybe I contradict myself but yes he deserves the boot for his performance this year. But I'll never say he's not a great manager and I think it's sad he'll be managing in Florida next year. End of a good era.

 

You still don't get it. 2005 means nothing anymore. The Sox's WS title doesn't make him a great manager. If he has so much to do with the Sox winning, what about losing? They've been choking significantly ever since that year, greg.

 

 

 

I don't know why you guys bother with greg. I posted this in another thread to him and it still holds true. You will never change his opinion on Ozzie:

 

Good point. I guess I am just trying to convince myself there's some hope of him one day being logical about something.

Edited July 21, 2011 by TheBigHurt

[bigruss]

Greg will ignore everything in that post but the fact that you said 2005 doesn't mean anything anymore. He will hide from all reasons you give him then blast you for saying such blasphemy and that 2005 = 6 yr boner.

[greg775]

I never said I gave him NO credit. However you are giving him too much. You keep saying if we win that means it was good managing. I won't refreain from telling you flat-out that that's utterly ridiculous.

 

I believe I've already (in my tenure here) gone through WAY MORE scenarios detailing his idiocy to you over the years... TONS OF THEM. It's pretty obvious a guy who would call a walk to a .145 hitter but not do so to a reigning MVP in the 8th inning with a 1 run lead, 2 outs and a base open is missing something upstairs... and this type of scenario is very common with Ozzie.

 

You still don't get it. 2005 means nothing anymore. The Sox's WS title doesn't make him a great manager. If he has so much to do with the Sox winning, what about losing? They've been choking significantly ever since that year, greg.

 

Good point. I guess I am just trying to convince myself there's some hope of him one day being logical about something.

 

1.) Well that's good. I did not think you were giving him any credit at all for the WS title. I may be giving him too much credit, but I have said I applaud the players that year as well. they deserve MORE credit than Ozzie. Players win games.

They played hard. They wanted it. This year's team doesn't want it. Maybe they are sick of Ozzeroo. They appear to be. I'm convinced we won't have him around much longer so we'll see next season.

2.) My point is these moves in games are not unique to Ozzie. Most managers make the same type in-game decisions. Yes, he's done a poor job this year because his team appears to sleepwalk. But no manager could win with this anemic offense. The question is whether it's Ozzie's fault so many players can't hit this year. Dunno. but I wouldn't think so.

 

I'm just saying it's a shame it's not working out with Ozzie long term because the lessons learned here are going to serve him well in his new gig.

 

[hogan873]

1.) Well that's good. I did not think you were giving him any credit at all for the WS title. I may be giving him too much credit, but I have said I applaud the players that year as well. they deserve MORE credit than Ozzie. Players win games.

They played hard. They wanted it. This year's team doesn't want it. Maybe they are sick of Ozzeroo. They appear to be. I'm convinced we won't have him around much longer so we'll see next season.

2.) My point is these moves in games are not unique to Ozzie. Most managers make the same type in-game decisions. Yes, he's done a poor job this year because his team appears to sleepwalk. But no manager could win with this anemic offense. The question is whether it's Ozzie's fault so many players can't hit this year. Dunno. but I wouldn't think so.

 

I'm just saying it's a shame it's not working out with Ozzie long term because the lessons learned here are going to serve him well in his new gig.

I don't know. Ozzie is about as stubborn as they come. The lessons learned so far here haven't served him well. He still makes the same bad decisions, and in my opinion he's only gotten worse.

[LittleHurt05]

3.) He has the last laugh. He has Chicago's only WS title since the dark ages and he's gonna be let go. That truly is laughable.

 

I'm glad your name isn't Greg McCaskey or Ditka would still be roaming the sidelines at Soldier Field.

[chw42]

It's pretty obvious he will be their next manager. They want him and our fans want to run him out of town. Easy to figure. He'll be very popular in Florida.

 

And we will begin the 3-4 year cycle of managers again.

Who will be the first guinea pig to take the Sox job?

 

Nobody gives a s*** about baseball down in Florida.