fathom Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Rizzo was on the score the day after the trade deadline, and he said there was a player that he'd only trade Dunn for and KW wouldn't give him up. They asked if it was Beckham, and he said no. They asked if it was Viciedo, and he said "no comment" or something along those lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 03:47 PM) Rizzo was on the score the day after the trade deadline, and he said there was a player that he'd only trade Dunn for and KW wouldn't give him up. They asked if it was Beckham, and he said no. They asked if it was Viciedo, and he said "no comment" or something along those lines. Well from what I ready Rizzo asked for Gordon they said no. He then asked for Viciedo plus Hudson and they said no. Edited July 19, 2011 by Baron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 08:50 PM) Well from what I ready Rizzo asked for Gordon they said no. He then asked for Viciedo plus Hudson and they said no. Hudson had already been traded for Jackson when Sox were negotiating with Rizzo. It's Viciedo they wanted, and I believe a few people with inside info on here confirmed it also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 03:53 PM) Hudson had already been traded for Jackson when Sox were negotiating with Rizzo. It's Viciedo they wanted, and I believe a few people with inside info on here confirmed it also. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/whit...os-quentin.html Yeah its Joe Cowley so take it for what its worth( not entirely about Carlos) http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/adam...s-thursday.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dyuen Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 11:39 AM) Honestly, I think there's a good chance he'd be fine. By all accounts he has multiple pitches he can throw for strikes and his peripherals are incredible. I'd like to see him stop in AAA first so we can see how he does against some seasoned hitters with more plate discipline, but I would be surprised if we don't see him up here by September at the latest He only has one big league pitch. His slider and change are below average and he doesnt even throw a curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 QUOTE (onedude @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 12:00 PM) Peavy? Actually that is a great suggestion, with peavey's competitive sprit and tough mind it would be a plus, and it will get his arm up to strength for next year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwolf68 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 QUOTE (Cali @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 03:14 PM) I'm done with this team if Viciedo is gone for a RELIEVER. You know...I have been a White Sox fan since I first knew what a baseball was...1977 is the born on date for my love, my devoted passionate love of this franchise. And I will NEVER quit being a Sox fan...it's who I am and I am proud of that, but if we do what you quote here I will absolutely lose interest in the long term future of this franchise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 There is absolutely no reliever in baseball who is worth more than Dayan Viciedo, especially in the Sox position. Their bullpen has been good - they have a good overall lefty reliever in Sale, Thornton's been OK, Ohman has really been death on lefties, Santos is good, Crain is good, and Bruney is just fine for his role. I really don't see any spot in that bullpen that cries "huge weakness, must improve." The biggest problem with this team is the lack of offense. They really, really need to find some way to upgrade the offense because it's abundantly clear after 3 and a half months that this offense isn't working and that they need to figure out a way to get Viciedo up here and getting regular ABs. It's a testament to the health and durability of this team that they've only used 15 (and eventually 16 when Flowers gets in a game) position players all year, but it's also a flaw in their stubbornness as an organization to try something new as opposed to simply throwing the same s*** at the wall and seeing it fall right to the ground. Shake the team up just a bit, throw more s*** at the wall, and maybe something will eventually stick. In terms of Ozzie's bullpen usage, it is absolutely true that the Sox bullpen consistently throws among the fewest innings each year, but I also believe it to be true that he has a tendency to ride a horse or two for far too long and that has resulted in injuries and ineffectiveness for certain Sox pitchers during his tenure. The big ones I can think of right off the bat are Jenks, Linebrink, and Putz, but I think there have probably been others too...perhaps Thornton is also an example of that. That is something that should be and seems to have been avoided this year pretty well due to the depth of the pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (docsox24 @ Jul 19, 2011 -> 05:44 PM) He only has one big league pitch. His slider and change are below average and he doesnt even throw a curve. By what standard is it judged that his slider and change are below average? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 01:49 AM) In terms of Ozzie's bullpen usage, it is absolutely true that the Sox bullpen consistently throws among the fewest innings each year, but I also believe it to be true that he has a tendency to ride a horse or two for far too long and that has resulted in injuries and ineffectiveness for certain Sox pitchers during his tenure. The big ones I can think of right off the bat are Jenks, Linebrink, and Putz, but I think there have probably been others too...perhaps Thornton is also an example of that. That is something that should be and seems to have been avoided this year pretty well due to the depth of the pen. I don't think any of those injuries have to do with the bullpen pitcher being ridden too hard, because really, none of them were ridden all that hard. None of them have ever been near the top of the league in appearances or innings with us. If those guys are being ridden too hard, then we need 8-9 men ready to be in the bullpen because they can't handle an average workload. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 08:30 AM) I don't think any of those injuries have to do with the bullpen pitcher being ridden too hard, because really, none of them were ridden all that hard. None of them have ever been near the top of the league in appearances or innings with us. If those guys are being ridden too hard, then we need 8-9 men ready to be in the bullpen because they can't handle an average workload. I think you missed his point. It isn't about season-long workload. It is about multiple instances of appearences on consecutive days, or 4-5 times in a week, or multiple innings plus consectutive outings, or warming up everyday (even if you don't pitch in a game... those kinds of thing which can easily be hidden in total appearences and IP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 09:35 AM) I think you missed his point. It isn't about season-long workload. It is about multiple instances of appearences on consecutive days, or 4-5 times in a week, or multiple innings plus consectutive outings, or warming up everyday (even if you don't pitch in a game... those kinds of thing which can easily be hidden in total appearences and IP. How many times though do we wind up mad on this site because Ozzie doesn't bring in the best reliever in close games? He saves those guys as much as he can for close games where we have the lead. If it's tied in the 8th inning right now, we're going to see Bruney or Ohman most likely, not Crain. Hell, in terms of warming guys up...he doesn't warm guys up a lot fo times when he needs to (see; the start of the 6th inning yesterday). If Ozzie is to be blamed for these guys in the bullpen getting hurt, then there's no way to run a successful bullpen in this era, because he's not nearly the hardest manager on his bullpen. He's much, much, much more reliant on his starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 08:39 AM) How many times though do we wind up mad on this site because Ozzie doesn't bring in the best reliever in close games? He saves those guys as much as he can for close games where we have the lead. If it's tied in the 8th inning right now, we're going to see Bruney or Ohman most likely, not Crain. Hell, in terms of warming guys up...he doesn't warm guys up a lot fo times when he needs to (see; the start of the 6th inning yesterday). If Ozzie is to be blamed for these guys in the bullpen getting hurt, then there's no way to run a successful bullpen in this era, because he's not nearly the hardest manager on his bullpen. He's much, much, much more reliant on his starters. Are you asking me to defend the irrationality that goes on in a game thread? lol, good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 09:41 AM) Are you asking me to defend the irrationality that goes on in a game thread? lol, good one. No, but I think it's a useful reference point here. The fans of the team actually want these top relievers to be used more than they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 08:46 AM) No, but I think it's a useful reference point here. The fans of the team actually want these top relievers to be used more than they are. It is not a useful reference point. Fans have no idea what is going on in the dugout, clubhouse, or anywhere else. Of course they want the top relievers in. We all want the top relievers in. If we used the fans as a reference point, Paul Konerko would have been cut in 2003, Mark Buehrle would have been cut in 2006, and we'd have a great collection of draft picks that busted, but we paid assloads of money for, along with about 87 hitting coaches in the last 2 years. The reality is very different, and Wite pretty clearly demonstrated why. Throwing a guy every other day for eight days is a different workload than throwing him twice in back to back games over eight days, yet it shows up statistically as the exact same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 09:51 AM) It is not a useful reference point. Fans have no idea what is going on in the dugout, clubhouse, or anywhere else. Of course they want the top relievers in. We all want the top relievers in. If we used the fans as a reference point, Paul Konerko would have been cut in 2003, Mark Buehrle would have been cut in 2006, and we'd have a great collection of draft picks that busted, but we paid assloads of money for, along with about 87 hitting coaches in the last 2 years. The reality is very different, and Wite pretty clearly demonstrated why. Throwing a guy every other day for eight days is a different workload than throwing him twice in back to back games over eight days, yet it shows up statistically as the exact same thing. My whole point is that guys don't throw every 8 days. It doesn't happen. They rarely warm up/pitch 3 in a row. And Ozzie does as good of a job with that as any manager. He way overblows his starters. His bullpen simply does not get overtaxed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 08:53 AM) My whole point is that guys don't throw every 8 days. It doesn't happen. They rarely warm up/pitch 3 in a row. And Ozzie does as good of a job with that as any manager. He way overblows his starters. His bullpen simply does not get overtaxed. Certain guys in his pen do get used disproportionally at times. Jesse Crain is the big one this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 09:55 AM) Certain guys in his pen do get used disproportionally at times. Jesse Crain is the big one this year. And as I've pointed out repeatedly, Crain is no where near the top of the league in usage. Your guys' response has been "But he warms up and doesn't come in!" without many examples of that happening...and somehow you're also sorta alledging without saying that other managers don't warm guys up without bringing them in as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 08:56 AM) And as I've pointed out repeatedly, Crain is no where near the top of the league in usage. Your guys' response has been "But he warms up and doesn't come in!" without many examples of that happening...and somehow you're also sorta alledging without saying that other managers don't warm guys up without bringing them in as well. Crain doesn't have to be a leader in a statistical category for him to be overused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 09:57 AM) Crain doesn't have to be a leader in a statistical category for him to be overused. Then we need a 9 man bullpen, because we're picking up guys who can't cut it with moderate use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 08:57 AM) Then we need a 9 man bullpen, because we're picking up guys who can't cut it with moderate use. You really have your head in the sand over the definition of moderate use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 10:00 AM) You really have your head in the sand over the definition of moderate use. A guy who is tied for 42nd in the league in appearances is not being heavily used unless somehow Ozzie is the only manager in the league who warms guys up without bringing them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 09:02 AM) A guy who is tied for 42nd in the league in appearances is not being heavily used unless somehow Ozzie is the only manager in the league who warms guys up without bringing them in. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 08:57 AM) Crain doesn't have to be a leader in a statistical category for him to be overused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2011 -> 09:57 AM) Then we need a 9 man bullpen, because we're picking up guys who can't cut it with moderate use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 ladies ladies. you are both pretty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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