southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Damn, that is just crazy. That's not justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Norway's system is not built on a premise of using punishment to provide justice. They're built on a premise of rehabilitation. And however we judge it...the numbers suggest their system is staggeringly effective at that. They have a recidivism rate ~1/3 that of the U.S. and U.K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 08:20 AM) Norway's system is not built on a premise of using punishment to provide justice. They're built on a premise of rehabilitation. And however we judge it...the numbers suggest their system is staggeringly effective at that. They have a recidivism rate ~1/3 that of the U.S. and U.K. Good luck fixing this guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 So how does this event shape the war on terror? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sir Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 07:20 AM) Norway's system is not built on a premise of using punishment to provide justice. They're built on a premise of rehabilitation. And however we judge it...the numbers suggest their system is staggeringly effective at that. They have a recidivism rate ~1/3 that of the U.S. and U.K. Rehabilitation for murderers is bulls***. For some minor, non-violent crimes, it's acceptable. Throw the drug users and stalkers and embezzlers in prison for a while and hope that by the time they're freed, they're smarter than to try that s*** again. But if you murder or rape someone, you should be going away forever. The idea shouldn't be, "hey, let's help this guy straighten out", it should be "you're never coming back because the greatest crimestopper is incapacitation". Lock Anders Breivik up and throw away the key, and he will never do this again. Not to mention, it's so heinous what he did, there's no reason he shouldn't pay with his freedom permanently. I don't care if Anders Breivik gets out of prison at age 53 a changed man. He lost the right to rehabilitation. The fact that Norway doesn't acknowledge that some people don't deserve rehabilitation and only deserve total incapacitation is idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Good lord people are quick to jump on idiocy. Apparently this guy was a low level freemason. Connect the dots from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (FlySox87 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 08:52 AM) Rehabilitation for murderers is bulls***. For some minor, non-violent crimes, it's acceptable. Throw the drug users and stalkers and embezzlers in prison for a while and hope that by the time they're freed, they're smarter than to try that s*** again. That's still just a punitive approach, not a rehab/reform approach. But if you murder or rape someone, you should be going away forever. The idea shouldn't be, "hey, let's help this guy straighten out", it should be "you're never coming back because the greatest crimestopper is incapacitation". Lock Anders Breivik up and throw away the key, and he will never do this again. Not to mention, it's so heinous what he did, there's no reason he shouldn't pay with his freedom permanently. I don't care if Anders Breivik gets out of prison at age 53 a changed man. He lost the right to rehabilitation. The fact that Norway doesn't acknowledge that some people don't deserve rehabilitation and only deserve total incapacitation is idiotic. I don't trust US newspaper's reporting of foreign sentencing laws. At least Sweden, Germany and France have similar sentencing laws and lack of DP but still have provisions for indefinite secure detention in rare cases such as this. A quick google search seems to be indicating the same thing for Norway--review his case every 5 years after the first 21, but they never have to release him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sir Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 08:07 AM) That's still just a punitive approach, not a rehab/reform approach. What would you prefer? I'm not going to make assumptions about your preference, nor do I wish to derail the thread, but what would you prefer in order to rehabilitate people? Frankly, I think if you commit a minor crime, we throw you in jail and hope your experience in jail was crappy enough that when you get out, you don't commit any more minor crimes. If you do, we lock you up for a longer time. If that second stint isn't enough, you go away forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (FlySox87 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 09:16 AM) What would you prefer? I'm not going to make assumptions about your preference, nor do I wish to derail the thread, but what would you prefer in order to rehabilitate people? Frankly, I think if you commit a minor crime, we throw you in jail and hope your experience in jail was crappy enough that when you get out, you don't commit any more minor crimes. If you do, we lock you up for a longer time. If that second stint isn't enough, you go away forever. Regardless of preferences or whether your proposed system is good, it's still punitive. I was just pointing that out. A separate thread to discuss prison/justice systems could be worthwhile, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sir Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Oh, I know it's a punitive approach. As a criminal justice major, I know these terms. And I'm perfectly alright with my approach being punitive. The system I laid out above is as close as I ever get to rehabilitation. I would very much enjoy a crime & justice thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 08:23 AM) Good luck fixing this guy. That's the problem. I see no issue with Norway, who has low violent crime rates anyway, using a rehabilitative approach... but there needs to be some path left open for the rare case of someone like this. They need to be able to put him away permanently, even if they don't believe in the death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:10 AM) That's the problem. I see no issue with Norway, who has low violent crime rates anyway, using a rehabilitative approach... but there needs to be some path left open for the rare case of someone like this. They need to be able to put him away permanently, even if they don't believe in the death penalty. QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 09:07 AM) I don't trust US newspaper's reporting of foreign sentencing laws. At least Sweden, Germany and France have similar sentencing laws and lack of DP but still have provisions for indefinite secure detention in rare cases such as this. A quick google search seems to be indicating the same thing for Norway--review his case every 5 years after the first 21, but they never have to release him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 So is there a BBC version that might be more reliable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:18 AM) So is there a BBC version that might be more reliable? Yeah, I am still seeing the Max 20/21 thing reported in the regular sources. Could be bad journalism, or not, can't tell. They need a path for this in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:18 AM) So is there a BBC version that might be more reliable? Probably would make more sense to rely on Norwegian sources for Norwegian sentencing laws, at least in the immediate aftermath, for accurate information. People working at a San Francisco paper might not have knowledge of how their criminal justice system actually works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Total deaths changed from 93 to 76 per CNN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Police have said a trial could be a year away. The maximum jail term in Norway is 21 years, although that can be extended if there is a risk of repeat offences. 'In theory he can be in jail for the rest of his life,' said professor of criminal law at the University of Oslo, Staale Eskeland. Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...l#ixzz1T8BLOqQk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:22 AM) Probably would make more sense to rely on Norwegian sources for Norwegian sentencing laws, at least in the immediate aftermath, for accurate information. People working at a San Francisco paper might not have knowledge of how their criminal justice system actually works. Well seeing as my Norwegian is pretty spotty... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:25 AM) Well seeing as my Norwegian is pretty spotty... That's not a good reason to assume that a newspaper in the US is accurately reporting Norwegian sentencing laws shortly after the story happens. Perhaps they should have made the effort to call someone in Norway, like that link above, to find out exactly how the system works before hyping up the "ZOMG! only 21 years!!!" story? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:32 AM) That's not a good reason to assume that a newspaper in the US is accurately reporting Norwegian sentencing laws shortly after the story happens. Perhaps they should have made the effort to call someone in Norway, like that link above, to find out exactly how the system works before hyping up the "ZOMG! only 21 years!!!" story? That's why I asked about the BBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:34 AM) That's why I asked about the BBC. Sorry, I took that as a cynical response. I did post a Daily Telegraph link a few posts above. They actually bothered to contact a criminal law professor in Oslo. He can effectively be held indefinitely, similar to how other European countries' systems work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:23 AM) Total deaths changed from 93 to 76 per CNN. How the heck does that happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:40 AM) How the heck does that happen?No clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 07:19 AM) So what happens to this terrorist? Do they have the death penalty there? The max security prison there has horseback riding, tennis courts and woodshop classes. A real hard prison life, for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigSqwert Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 10:43 AM) The max security prison there has horseback riding, tennis courts and woodshop classes. A real hard prison life, for sure. Where did you find that info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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