macsandz Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 There is a lot of over-valuing of Rasmus happening here and a primary factor is he cost-controlled? While that is important, if you have to cite that as a primary positive you don't trade premier pitching like Thornton and the recent E-JAX for the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:17 PM) Because that is overpaying for a guy who is struggling and in LaRussa's doghouse. Is it too much to ask Kenny to win some of these trades decisively??? you can't get rasmus cheap. you just can't. he's got elite potential. how many years did it take kemp to become elite? Ethier? I'm just saying, he's a huge talent, and to only give up a FA pitcher, and RP, and a prospect, is amazing. If it's only one of the first two and that spec - even better. I don't see how anyone can really argue that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (bucket-of-suck @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:20 PM) There is a lot of over-valuing of Rasmus happening here and a primary factor is he cost-controlled? While that is important, if you have to cite that as a primary positive you don't trade premier pitching like Thornton and the recent E-JAX for the guy. In my best Peter Griffin impersonation...What!!!? Jackson is GONE after this year. Thornton is a reliever who failed miserably as a closer and will be making almost $6 million dollars next year. For Rasmus? See ya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:22 PM) In my best Peter Griffin impersonation...What!!!? Jackson is GONE after this year. Thornton is a reliever who failed miserably as a closer and will be making almost $6 million dollars next year. For Rasmus? See ya! exxxxxxactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:22 PM) In my best Peter Griffin impersonation...What!!!? Jackson is GONE after this year. Thornton is a reliever who failed miserably as a closer and will be making almost $6 million dollars next year. For Rasmus? See ya! Have you bothered to check what elite setup men are making these days? Especially elite lefthanders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:27 PM) Have you bothered to check what elite setup men are making these days? Especially elite lefthanders? Potential elite CF >> setup man And this is where the system comes in. If you can't deal a guy that's going to throw at max 70 innings then you've got some big time problems. And yes, I agree with you when you say you should fully scope the market for a Matt Thornton before you make any deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:27 PM) Have you bothered to check what elite setup men are making these days? Especially elite lefthanders? Yea I understand EJax, but people are being very shortsighted on Thornton. Dude is one of, if not the best left handed reliever(s)/set-up guys in the game prior to this year. Now do you make the deal? Absolutely, but don't sell Thornton short. I could see him thriving in the NL, bailing out St. Louis alot in later innings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Thornton will be 35 at the end of the season. Who knows how long he's got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:33 PM) Yea I understand EJax, but people are being very shortsighted on Thornton. Dude is one of, if not the best left handed reliever(s)/set-up guys in the game prior to this year. Now do you make the deal? Absolutely, but don't sell Thornton short. I could see him thriving in the NL, bailing out St. Louis alot in later innings. People also are ignoring the fact that elite relievers come and go. Linebrink used to be elite, what's happened to Jonathan Broxton? Brian Wilson wasn't always this good. What happened to Bobby Jenks? George Sherrill was good for 10 minutes. Joe Nathan. Cliff Politte. I could go on and on and on and on and on. Relievers are the MOST unpredictable players in baseball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 03:37 AM) Thornton will be 35 at the end of the season. Who knows how long he's got. I would be fine with trading Matt and a horrible prospect from Class A who everybody knows will NOT make it for Rasmus. I fear it'll be matt and Jackson and a good prospect. That would be overpaying IMO. Also I don't even want Rasmus if he merely platoons with the loafer. Rios needs to be shipped somewhere to make room for Rasmus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:37 PM) Thornton will be 35 at the end of the season. Who knows how long he's got. Hasn't lost any velocity on his arm at all. Hell I remember people saying the same thing about Billy Wagner for years. (and no I'm not comparing them as far as performances/careers) And no for anyone wondering, I'm not defending against this deal at all if you didn't read a page before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Reddy @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:40 PM) People also are ignoring the fact that elite relievers come and go. Linebrink used to be elite, what's happened to Jonathan Broxton? Brian Wilson wasn't always this good. What happened to Bobby Jenks? George Sherrill was good for 10 minutes. Joe Nathan. Cliff Politte. I could go on and on and on and on and on. Relievers are the MOST unpredictable players in baseball. Matt has a 95 mph fastball in a mostly PED-free league coming from the left side. Check out guys like that....they usually pitch as long as they want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OilCan Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Have we forgotten about Hector Santiago already? Seemed allright with me when he was here. Thornton and EJax can go bye bye. Addison Reed, if that rumor is true *bigsighbecauseIdon'twanthimtraded* maybe. I'd like to get a prospect back if Reed is part of this trade. If this works, call Santiago back up, you can either start him and keep Sale in the pen, or start stretching out Sale now and leave Santiago in the pen. Buehrle/Danks/Floyd/Peavy/Humber/Sale or Santiago, or leave Sale and Santiago in the pen for the rest of the year. Not too shabby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:41 PM) Matt has a 95 mph fastball in a mostly PED-free league coming from the left side. Check out guys like that....they usually pitch as long as they want to. at the end of the day, guarantee we don't trade Reed AND Thornton, thus... we're fine if one of 'em goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:41 PM) Matt has a 95 mph fastball in a mostly PED-free league coming from the left side. Check out guys like that....they usually pitch as long as they want to. Santiago throws it 94 and has a decent breaking pitch and Sale and Ohman work just fine in the bullpen anyways. As much as I like Matt Thornton, saving $5.5 mill over the next two years along with another million for the buyout (and another million for the rest of the season) would be nice. The only three prospects I don't give up right now are Viciedo, Reed, and Thompson. Otherwise, with maybe another exception here and there, pretty much anybody else is free game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Reddy @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:40 PM) People also are ignoring the fact that elite relievers come and go. Linebrink used to be elite, what's happened to Jonathan Broxton? Brian Wilson wasn't always this good. What happened to Bobby Jenks? George Sherrill was good for 10 minutes. Joe Nathan. Cliff Politte. I could go on and on and on and on and on. Relievers are the MOST unpredictable players in baseball. Linebrink's lowest WHIP over those "elite" years was 1.036. That would have been Thornton's 3rd best since he's been here. And you know damn well Nathan was a stud before injury. Of course he won't be the same. 27 year old Broxton has one off year this year and all of a sudden he's s***? Wilson only had one meh year which was 08 and was solid in 07 (albeit only 24 games), 09-11. The rest was more or less had a career year. Your right relievers are unpredictable (as if anyone didn't know that) but you know which guys are the true elite when they've had the better history of doing it (unless your an insane freak like Mariano which in one year [07] had that 1.121 WHIP year. Just terrible. Should of retired). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:51 PM) Linebrink's lowest WHIP over those "elite" years was 1.036. That would have been Thornton's 3rd best since he's been here. And you know damn well Nathan was a stud before injury. Of course he won't be the same. 27 year old Broxton has one off year this year and all of a sudden he's s***? Wilson only had one meh year which was 08 and was solid in 07 (albeit only 24 games), 09-11. The rest was more or less had a career year. Your right relievers are unpredictable (as if anyone didn't know that) but you know which guys are the true elite when they've had the better history of doing it (unless your an insane freak like Mariano which in one year [07] had that 1.121 WHIP year. Just terrible. Should of retired). ... 1.03 whip is ridiculously good, for the record. and a 1.12 is also great. I think you don't quite understand the stat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:47 PM) Santiago throws it 94 and has a decent breaking pitch and Sale and Ohman work just fine in the bullpen anyways. As much as I like Matt Thornton, saving $5.5 mill over the next two years along with another million for the buyout (and another million for the rest of the season) would be nice. The only three prospects I don't give up right now are Viciedo, Reed, and Thompson. Otherwise, with maybe another exception here and there, pretty much anybody else is free game. My argument is not that I wouldn't trade Thornton. It's that I wouldn't trade both Jackson and Thornton. Not for a guy with question marks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 06:51 PM) The prospect Cardinals are after is Addison Reed. Check it out on their message boards. Jackson, Thorton, and Reed for Rasmus. I'd try not to give up Reed because I think he will be Thorton's replacement if a trade is done. Reed is too valuable. This is the point where the post game show host hangs up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:40 PM) I would be fine with trading Matt and a horrible prospect from Class A who everybody knows will NOT make it for Rasmus. Man, you are hilarious Personally, I would offer them Dunn and Rios for Rasmus.. Dunn will turn it around eventually and Rios has 5 tool potential Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:00 PM) I also don't think some realize how bad Rasmus has been the last couple of months. People want to send Beckham down to AAA, they'd be saying the same thing about Rasmus. Also, I don't know where people get Rasmus is a good defensive CF. He is not. Potentially he's a great player, but a lot of things have to play out correctly for that to happen. He's supposed to have a meddeling father who works with his hitting on the field and I guess causes trouble on Cardinals' message boards. If the trade happened, Soxtalk probably would gain a new member. I don't get why so many are anxious to trade two pitchers who are making plenty of appearances for a young CF who has lost his starting job? Young guys don't seem to blossom here unless Coop can fix him. I guess Mental Midget Island still has some more openings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 07:49 PM) Really, if you can get Colby Rasmus for the mistake that is Edwin Jackson, plus Matt Thornton's old ass, plus a relief spect, you do it immediately. This rumor clearly isn't true, or else Kenny would have made the deal already and then put TCQ on the open market. Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Real @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 07:50 PM) how the f*** does that make the Sox better this year? You're saying Quentin isn't as valuable to this team as Rasmus would be, PLUS losing Thornton? You're nuts if you think this. It doesn't. But we have already written off this year, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:51 PM) Linebrink's lowest WHIP over those "elite" years was 1.036. That would have been Thornton's 3rd best since he's been here. And you know damn well Nathan was a stud before injury. Of course he won't be the same. 27 year old Broxton has one off year this year and all of a sudden he's s***? Wilson only had one meh year which was 08 and was solid in 07 (albeit only 24 games), 09-11. The rest was more or less had a career year. Your right relievers are unpredictable (as if anyone didn't know that) but you know which guys are the true elite when they've had the better history of doing it (unless your an insane freak like Mariano which in one year [07] had that 1.121 WHIP year. Just terrible. Should of retired). ok - and based on your standards, brian wilson STILL isn't elite. Wanna know his WHIPs? 08 - 1.44 09 - 1.20 10 - 1.18 11 - 1.41 uh oh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (T R U @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:54 PM) Man, you are hilarious Personally, I would offer them Dunn and Rios for Rasmus.. Dunn will turn it around eventually and Rios has 5 tool potential Because they would really want to take on that kind of salary right before they have to make a huge offer to Pujols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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