sircaffey Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Thornton's not exactly comparable to other elite RP, in that he has one and only one good pitch, his fastball. When Father Time knocks a couple ticks off of Matt's fastball, he's going to callapse. He has no secondary pitch that normal elite relievers have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Real @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 07:59 PM) what about my post that said 'this year' wasn't clear? quentin right now, this year > colby rasmus posted a few days ago, Sox reportedly have 7 teams inquiring about Quentin, none of which are offering top prospects for him. Beachy has not been offered according to Terry Boers Sox 'guy', that he gets his information from And when were they right before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:54 PM) I don't get why so many are anxious to trade two pitchers who are making plenty of appearances for a young CF who has lost his starting job? Young guys don't seem to blossom here unless Coop can fix him. I guess Mental Midget Island still has some more openings. veterans don't either. NO hitters blossom here. hmm... i wonder what common denominator there might be....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:51 PM) Linebrink's lowest WHIP over those "elite" years was 1.036. That would have been Thornton's 3rd best since he's been here. And you know damn well Nathan was a stud before injury. Of course he won't be the same. 27 year old Broxton has one off year this year and all of a sudden he's s***? Wilson only had one meh year which was 08 and was solid in 07 (albeit only 24 games), 09-11. The rest was more or less had a career year. Your right relievers are unpredictable (as if anyone didn't know that) but you know which guys are the true elite when they've had the better history of doing it (unless your an insane freak like Mariano which in one year [07] had that 1.121 WHIP year. Just terrible. Should of retired). Typically, the first thing a pitcher loses is velocity. Without velocity, Thornton is going to be extremely mediocre unless he reinvents himself with a good breaking pitch. I have no problem with this type of move because relievers ARE replaceable. I love Thornton and everything he's done, but I would rather see them save $5.5 mill the next two years and go with Hector Santiago or whoever else and bring in a guy who could (actually) roam CF for the next 3-5 years instead of that POS Rios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:00 PM) In my mind, to hell with that. We're 100 games in and we're below .500. Yeah, anything can happen in the playoffs. I get that. But if we somehow do get there, the chances of us getting to the World Series are extremely remote. At some point this franchise has to legitimately look at long-term success. Not selling out every year in a futile attempt to win this crappy division. Because obviously it hasn't worked. I'm in favor of long-term success over an at best 50% chance of winning a s***ty division. At least you are consistent. All I have heard is how we have no chance this year, yet people are b****ing about this deal hurting us this year... Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:57 PM) At least you are consistent. All I have heard is how we have no chance this year, yet people are b****ing about this deal hurting us this year... Seriously? like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:05 PM) Yeah, this has been known for a while. And well ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:10 PM) Rasmus put up huge numbers in April. Since then he's been total garbage and he can "play" CF. Carl Everett could "play" CF in 2003 and Rob Macowiak could "play" CF in 2006-7 and Ken Griffey Jr. could "play" CF in 2008. There is a difference in playing CF and actually being good at it. You're all gung ho now, if this trade happened, and it appears the rumors aren't true, I think you will be dissappointed. I think a lot of people would. I think if it were presented KW would have to do it as long as he felt Rasmus and his baggage wouldn't be a problem. Maybe they could keep it from being a problem for a while, but eventually......................... You did not just compare Rasmus to these ass clowns defensively... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Reddy @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:21 PM) you can't get rasmus cheap. you just can't. he's got elite potential. Yeah to replace the current CF who has the same MO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 08:53 PM) Hey, honestly, I'd have a pretty positive outlook on our future with both Rasmus and Beckham in the fold. That's two guys who are going to figure it out and be a part of really good future White Sox teams. This is what drives me nuts. Everyone heard "all-in" so they think the future means dick. The White Sox supposedly can land Colby Rasmus. My God, this is a kid who projects to hit .280 with 30 bombs and 30 steals yearly... he's had a 133 OPS+ season and is still just 24. The room to grow is apparent, and a change of scenery would do wonders for him. Ugh, if the Sox pass on the chance to get him, I'll be very upset. However, I feel this "rumor" is just that, because if this offer is on the table and Kenny passes? Pish, bye bye baseball for me. I just don't think this rumor has any truth to it. Kenny Williams deals either happen or they don't. You NEVER hear a peep about them prior to the trigger being pulled. That alone makes me think this ain't goin' down. All In is Brooks Boyer. If Kenny Williams thinks he can get a guy like this for a pitcher who is walking in three months he does it in a heartbeat, advertising campaigns be damned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:53 PM) My argument is not that I wouldn't trade Thornton. It's that I wouldn't trade both Jackson and Thornton. Not for a guy with question marks. It really depends on a ton of other information that we have no concept of knowing. Who all is interested? How highly do the Cardinals value both Jackson and Thornton? What do the Cardinals believe is full value for Colby Rasmus? I could ask questions all night, but the fact of the matter remains, Rasmus is still a very talented young CF who has put up very good numbers before, has had an absolute falling out with LaRussa, and could be acquired. The absolute most I give up is Jackson, Thornton, and a prospect. I start with Jackson/Thornton plus a prospect, and then concede Jackson and Thornton for Rasmus and a small minor league piece, and I adamently try to stay right there until I absolutely have to do something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:55 PM) Because they would really want to take on that kind of salary right before they have to make a huge offer to Pujols. hence the joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPN366 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Reddy @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:40 PM) People also are ignoring the fact that elite relievers come and go. Linebrink used to be elite, what's happened to Jonathan Broxton? Brian Wilson wasn't always this good. What happened to Bobby Jenks? George Sherrill was good for 10 minutes. Joe Nathan. Cliff Politte. I could go on and on and on and on and on. Relievers are the MOST unpredictable players in baseball. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (JPN366 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 10:15 PM) Exactly. No doubt. And we are talking about a 35 year old hard thrower? Yeah. Bye-bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 10:02 PM) It really depends on a ton of other information that we have no concept of knowing. Who all is interested? How highly do the Cardinals value both Jackson and Thornton? What do the Cardinals believe is full value for Colby Rasmus? I could ask questions all night, but the fact of the matter remains, Rasmus is still a very talented young CF who has put up very good numbers before, has had an absolute falling out with LaRussa, and could be acquired. The absolute most I give up is Jackson, Thornton, and a prospect. I start with Jackson/Thornton plus a prospect, and then concede Jackson and Thornton for Rasmus and a small minor league piece, and I adamently try to stay right there until I absolutely have to do something else. Just look at the market...you're going to have 8-10 clubs interested in both Jackson and Thornton if you make it known you will move them. I don't like Rasmus as much as many of you guys apparently do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 25, 2011 -> 02:02 AM) For context this was the post I was referring to in the post I re-posted above: So you've invoked Beckham's name yet again in comparison to Rasmus and it seems Rasmus' defense has gone from "less than average" to Mackowiak-bad in the course of 2 weeks. His D hasn't been good and he's struggled the past 2 months while pissing off his manager, seemingly because he doesn't care for McGwire but he's still young, crazy talented and doing certain things well on a whole that show off that potential such as his BB rate. If you're going to give up some major league talent and take a chance on a guy better it be a talented 24 year old who's having a bad year but is coming off a terrific season and will still be fairly cheap next year than a veteran making bank or a rental. This is a great post. But just because Edwin is leaving doesn't mean we should lump he and Thornton in the same deal for a 24 year old who has sucked of late. You can still trade Matt in another deal. Give them Edwin and a prospect or Matt and a prospect (a lousy one) for Rasmus. And that still begs the question of what to do with Rios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 10:16 PM) No doubt. And we are talking about a 35 year old hard thrower? Yeah. Bye-bye. haha, I cant tell if your responses are legit or not.. this is like the 4th one ive seen where it just had a hilarious mocking vibe to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPN366 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 06:05 PM) Do you think they will bench Freese for Teahen? He already platoons with Daniel Descalso. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (T R U @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 10:18 PM) haha, I cant tell if your responses are legit or not.. this is like the 4th one ive seen where it just had a hilarious mocking vibe to it I'm serious. If you can get Colby Rasmus, who is better than any prospect we are going to get for either Thornton or Jackson, you do it in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPN366 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 I have a feeling that Tyler Kuhn is being kept in AA to up his trade value. I've had that feeling for almost 2 months now. I could see the Cards liking him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) No offense, but please educate me on why we'd overpay for Colby. He is hitting ... 241 with nine homers and 36 ribbies, five stolen bases 57 runs scored. He's been caught stealing twice. His onbase percentage is .327. He has 43 walks and 73 Ks. Last year he hit 23 homers but struck out a ton. I mean he's an OK prospect but not to overpay for, even if Edwin is leaving anyway. I say make it a straight up deal, baby, or no deal at all. Edwin for Rasmus. Or Matt for Rasmus. Why overpay? Seriously? Discuss Colby the player when you are salivating over getting him, please. He is a first round draft pick, which is prolly why St. Louis will demand a clear cut victory in any trade. Edited July 25, 2011 by greg775 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almagest Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 If the Cardinals want to sell low on Rasmus that's fine with me. Even his current mediocre season is better than what we're getting from 2/3rds of our outfield (yes I know Pierre is hitting but he still doesn't walk, hit for any power, or steal bases). I'm guessing if Rasmus goes, it might be to try to keep LaRussa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:26 PM) No offense, but please educate me on why we'd overpay for Colby. He is hitting ... 241 with nine homers and 36 ribbies, five stolen bases 57 runs scored. He's been caught stealing twice. His onbase percentage is .327. He has 43 walks and 73 Ks. Last year he hit 23 homers but struck out a ton. I mean he's an OK prospect but not to overpay for, even if Edwin is leaving anyway. I say make it a straight up deal, baby, or no deal at all. Edwin for Rasmus. Or Matt for Rasmus. Why overpay? Seriously? Discuss Colby the player when you are salivating over getting him, please. He is a first round draft pick, which is prolly why St. Louis will demand a clear cut victory in any trade. he's 24, was the #3 prospect in the NL going into last year. That's not an accident. His OPS last season was .859. you seriously think you can get him for a 2 month rent-a-player in Jackson, or a 35 year old reliever. you REALLY think that? you don't understand baseball if that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Reddy @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:52 PM) ... 1.03 whip is ridiculously good, for the record. and a 1.12 is also great. I think you don't quite understand the stat. I understand it perfectly. I think you didn't get my post. QUOTE (Reddy @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 09:55 PM) ok - and based on your standards, brian wilson STILL isn't elite. Wanna know his WHIPs? 08 - 1.44 09 - 1.20 10 - 1.18 11 - 1.41 uh oh... You called him elite, not me. I personally think he's overrated actually. Crazy son of a b**** though. Edited July 25, 2011 by SoxAce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 24, 2011 -> 10:21 PM) I'm serious. If you can get Colby Rasmus, who is better than any prospect we are going to get for either Thornton or Jackson, you do it in a heartbeat. So you dismiss the impact that 4 prospects could make by dealing them separately? I'm not someone who usually demands "character" guys, but this guy just rubs me the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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