kitekrazy Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Isn't Jackson a Boras client? I wouldn't get too attached to Viciedo knowing the Sox history with a Boras client. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 05:32 PM) Isn't Jackson a Boras client? I wouldn't get too attached to Viciedo knowing the Sox history with a Boras client. Yes, both are Boras clients. Viciedo at least has a good 6 years before FA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 While watching the Cubs blow a 5 run lead to the Cards this afternoon, Tim McCarver spoke about the Rasmus trade. He compared Rasmus and his father to Todd Marinovich and his father. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Kenny's timing is so s***ty. Humber appears to be a middle reliever now. He can't go five-plus innings anymore. So he trades Jackson. Now we have 4 starters instead of six. Amazing. This wouldn't matter if we all agreed the Sox were going nowhere and out of it. One problem with that. For MONTHS people on this board have insisted we are IN the race. What gives? Now all of a sudden we are out of it, when KW and Oz acted like we were in it virtually all year??? This organization truly is a joke. How bout call up Viciedo about 4 weeks ago? Nah we couldn't do that for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Is it now safe to say the Cardinals were winners in this trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Oct 28, 2011 -> 10:55 PM) Is it now safe to say the Cardinals were winners in this trade? The constant need to single out winners and losers in trades is misguided. It's an incorrect way to go about analyzing a trade. The Cardinals did well, yes. To say they won is to say the other teams lost, which is incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (Pale Sox @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 12:43 AM) The constant need to single out winners and losers in trades is misguided. It's an incorrect way to go about analyzing a trade. The Cardinals did well, yes. To say they won is to say the other teams lost, which is incorrect. The Cardinals won the World Series. You can easily say they won the trade. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Oct 28, 2011 -> 11:51 PM) The Cardinals won the World Series. You can easily say they won the trade. Sorry. I have a hard time believing the Blue Jays regret trading a bunch of non-cornerstone bullpen pieces for Colby Rasmus, a potential star CF. Staying on the Blue Jays as an example, I remember them trading Jeff Kent for David Cone. They Jays won the WS, but the Mets (who were not a contender) received a HOF second baseman. Both teams won. The situations of teams involved in the trade dictated the needs and the therefore the outcome. To say the Cardinals "won" inherently says the other team(s) lost. This is simply not the case. Each team had different needs, and each teams needs were fulfilled. The Cardinals got pitching depth, the Jays got upside future talent, and the White Sox shed payroll (with a slight infusion of young talent). It's a common flaw of those outside the industry to assume one team is trying to fleece another. It makes for a nice narrative when it's time to print some stories, but it's an inaccurate representation of reality. Edited October 29, 2011 by Pale Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max power Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I agree with pale sox. Trades, much like everything else in the world (but that's another argument), are not dualistic. Saying 'the cardinals won the trade' implies that they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (MAX @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 01:14 AM) I agree with pale sox. Trades, much like everything else in the world (but that's another argument), are not dualistic. Saying 'the cardinals won the trade' implies that they are. Right...saying the Cards won the trade because they won the WS is kind of like saying they were better off this year without Adam Wainwright. The bp arms they acquired definitely helped them more than anything, especially Eyechart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (MAX @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 12:14 AM) I agree with pale sox. Trades, much like everything else in the world (but that's another argument), are not dualistic. Saying 'the cardinals won the trade' implies that they are. Yeah, basically. I've found it to be a common fault in many aspects of life, like you said. I think it goes back to the journalistic narrative. Singling out winners and losers is fun, but it really doesn't represent the actual reality of most situations. I think a lot of people adopt that mindset from reading the same slop over and over again, but it's a counterproductive way of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 They won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 12:17 AM) Right...saying the Cards won the trade because they won the WS is kind of like saying they were better off this year without Adam Wainwright. The bp arms they acquired definitely helped them more than anything, especially Eyechart. I'm just looking forward to Dotel hugging Obama again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 02:17 AM) Right...saying the Cards won the trade because they won the WS is kind of like saying they were better off this year without Adam Wainwright. ZI may be a litle drunk right now, but i like that comparison. And plus, evben if they won the trade, who mcares? The trade was not w/ us. We traded w/ the blue jays. The blua jays then traded w/ the Cardiansl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 01:22 AM) They won. Their winning is completely independent of our not winning. The same thing goes for the Blue Jays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (Pale Sox @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 01:27 AM) Their winning is completely independent of our not winning. The same thing goes for the Blue Jays. .... But they won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 01:24 AM) ZI may be a litle drunk right now, but i like that comparison. And plus, evben if they won the trade, who mcares? The trade was not w/ us. We traded w/ the blue jays. The blua jays then traded w/ the Cardiansl. You might be drunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkfan Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 I don't see how we lost considering we had 6 Starting pitchers, The worst player ever in Mark Teahen, and an appetite for Relief Pitchers. Trades are not a zero sum game. If the Cardinals Had Adam Dunn, and we had pujols, we would have won 207 regular season games this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI1020 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (Hawkfan @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 02:32 PM) I don't see how we lost considering we had 6 Starting pitchers, The worst player ever in Mark Teahen, and an appetite for Relief Pitchers. Trades are not a zero sum game. If the Cardinals Had Adam Dunn, and we had pujols, we would have won 207 regular season games this year. Exactly. Also it often takes years to properly evaluate a trade. I don't miss Edwin Jackson and I'm very happy for him that he was able get that ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Hawkfan @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 09:32 AM) I don't see how we lost considering we had 6 Starting pitchers, The worst player ever in Mark Teahen, and an appetite for Relief Pitchers. Trades are not a zero sum game. If the Cardinals Had Adam Dunn, and we had pujols, we would have won 207 regular season games this year. Stop making sense. I'll break this down so you can understand it like the rest of the negative anything the White Sox do gang on Soxtalk... The Cardinals won the world series because they got Edwin Jackson. You know, because of his posted 1-1 postseason record with that awesome 5.60 ERA he posted and all. Without him, the Cards had no chance. Even though, to be fair, he pitched well in the WS. They didn't win because of him. At least, that's what a few people are saying right now. Which makes them what I call completely and totally baseball dumb. Edited October 29, 2011 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 10:19 AM) Stop making sense. I'll break this down so you can understand it like the rest of the negative anything the White Sox do gang on Soxtalk... The Cardinals won the world series because they got Edwin Jackson. You know, because of his posted 1-1 postseason record with that awesome 5.60 ERA he posted and all. Without him, the Cards had no chance. Even though, to be fair, he pitched well in the WS. They didn't win because of him. At least, that's what a few people are saying right now. Which makes them what I call completely and totally baseball dumb. They may not have made the playoffs without him, he filled the hole at the back of their rotation. They went 9-4 in games he started including 5-1 in Septemeber. He won an elimination game vs. Philly in game 4 of the NLDS. Their bullpen was garbage most of the season, and Dotel & Rzepczynski helped stabilize it and stop blowing so many games. Scrabble got some huge outs vs lefties in the playoffs and Dotel owns Ryan Braun. Without those 3 guys, odds are they don't complete the comeback and make the playoffs, let alone win it all. I'm not saying that the Blue Jays & White Sox are idiots for making this trade or that they have regrets. But the Cardinals won the WS as a direct result from this trade. They won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2HH Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 10:33 AM) They may not have made the playoffs without him, he filled the hole at the back of their rotation. They went 9-4 in games he started including 5-1 in Septemeber. He won an elimination game vs. Philly in game 4 of the NLDS. Their bullpen was garbage most of the season, and Dotel & Rzepczynski helped stabilize it and stop blowing so many games. Scrabble got some huge outs vs lefties in the playoffs and Dotel owns Ryan Braun. Without those 3 guys, odds are they don't complete the comeback and make the playoffs, let alone win it all. I'm not saying that the Blue Jays & White Sox are idiots for making this trade or that they have regrets. But the Cardinals won the WS as a direct result from this trade. They won. There's no real way to prove that they wouldn't have won without him just as well. The point is, to say the Cardinals "won" in the trade simply because they "won the series" is just cause-and-effect bulls*** that cannot be proven. The Sox didn't lose in that trade, regardless. The Sox weren't going to win the WS (let alone the division) with EJ and Tehen anyway, so getting rid of both and getting anything in return, as far as I'm concerned, is a win for the White Sox in that trade. So in saying the Cards won in that trade and the Sox lost is simply disingenuous. To say otherwise is just baseball dumb. Edited October 29, 2011 by Y2HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 QUOTE (Y2HH @ Oct 29, 2011 -> 10:52 AM) There's no real way to prove that they wouldn't have won without him just as well. The point is, to say the Cardinals "won" in the trade simply because they "won the series" is just cause-and-effect bulls*** that cannot be proven. The Sox didn't lose in that trade, regardless. The Sox weren't going to win the WS (let alone the division) with EJ and Tehen anyway, so getting rid of both and getting anything in return, as far as I'm concerned, is a win for the White Sox in that trade. So in saying the Cards won in that trade and the Sox lost is simply disingenuous. To say otherwise is just baseball dumb. It's baseball dumb to say that the trade didn't directly contribute to the Cards winning the WS. They had lost 7 of the last 8 games McClellan had started when they traded for EJax to replace him. Their bullpen had cost them countless games all year and needed to be shaken up. I never said the White Sox made a bad trade or that they shouldn't have made it. But in the long run, it will probably be an inconsequential trade for them. The trade directly contributed to a World Series title for St. Louis. Winner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Did anyone say the Sox lost the trade? Nobody's heard of a win-win? But unless the Sox or Blue Jays win a title with players received from this trade, the Cardinals won the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 It's like pieces of a puzzle isn't it? Maybe Edwin Jackson didn't win the WS for the Cards but he helped get them there just like the other Card players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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