Hyperpartisanship is threatening to destroy our country

[mr_genius]

I think it goes something like this:

 

 

SS...........................................liberal.............Moderate.............Conservative.. ..............Tea Party...............The Sir

 

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

I've always maintained that defense is one of the few legitimate areas of government. I'm all for our huge defense budget.

 

Of course you are, it keeps you employed. The military could dismiss you and our country would be 0.00% less safe.

[The Sir]

Of course you are, it keeps you employed. The military could dismiss you and our country would be 0.00% less safe.

 

Uhh, yeah, sure...if I don't show up for work on Monday, it will be my ass and the military will continue to function without me. It was here long before I showed up and it will be here long after I'm gone from this world. And it's like that for any Soldier. No Soldier means anything as an individual. But we do mean a lot as part of a team. The Army's all about teamwork.

 

But what would you know about that? You never served.

[The Sir]

Just to expand on my point, CW's statement applies for any company. If a cop doesn't show up for work, that police department will continue to function and the city will still be kept safe. If a fire fighter is dismissed, fires will still be successfully fought in that district. If CW doesn't show up to McDonalds this week, burgers will still be flipped and served.

 

Yeah, none of these people being dismissed will cause their respective organizations to collapse. But that doesn't make their service any less important or noble.

 

I can't believe someone made such a moronic point. Just another goofy leftist attempt to minimize the fact that I went out and did something for my country. I'll chalk it up to jealousy. Hilarious.

[The Sir]

Of course you are, it keeps you employed.

 

Also, why do you guys continue to rehash this point? I supported the military long before I joined and I'll support it long after I go. I support it because the military is what keeps our way of life safe. I'm sure some of you guys think freedom of speech is protected by idiots who go and stand on street corners with signs that support a whole mishmash of causes. Or that freedom of press is defended by journalists like Woodward and Bernstein. But that's just crap. All the freedoms that Americans enjoy and take entirely for granted are defended by men with guns who take abysmal pay and horrid conditions while deployed all because they think America is something worth dying for. Leftist brats stay home in comfort and think they do jack s*** to defend those things, and that's just silly. They do nothing compared to the men and women of our Armed Forces.

[mr_genius]

If CW doesn't show up to McDonalds this week, burgers will still be flipped and served.

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

Just to expand on my point, CW's statement applies for any company. If a cop doesn't show up for work, that police department will continue to function and the city will still be kept safe. If a fire fighter is dismissed, fires will still be successfully fought in that district.

 

If a cop or firefighter leaves their job, they'd probably be replaced, unless the department was overstaffed already. You wouldn't need to be replaced because the military is far larger than it needs to be. You are an unnecessary use of tax dollars.

 

If CW doesn't show up to McDonalds this week, burgers will still be flipped and served.

 

Actually, if I didn't show up for work, my organization would be in severe trouble since I'm one of only 2 programmers and am the only one who intimately knows a number of our systems.

 

I can't believe someone made such a moronic point. Just another goofy leftist attempt to minimize the fact that I went out and did something for my country. I'll chalk it up to jealousy. Hilarious.

 

lol, sure

 

[CrimsonWeltall]

Also, why do you guys continue to rehash this point?

 

Because you complain about government spending when your job is government spending that is only done because politicians want to peddle their WE GOTTA BE STRONG ON DEFENSE rhetoric.

[The Sir]

If a cop or firefighter leaves their job, they'd probably be replaced, unless the department was overstaffed already. You wouldn't need to be replaced because the military is far larger than it needs to be. You are an unnecessary use of tax dollars.

 

This is a stupid point. You don't know my skills as a Soldier, you're only telling me I could be dismissed without any real effect because I'm just one of many, just a face in the crowd. So I would only presume that you would tell any serviceman that his service is not needed. So where is the line drawn? If every Soldier took your advice to heart and stopped going to work, the military would cease to exist. And then we'd be defenseless.

 

And even if the military does need cuts, you going around and telling Soldiers that they are simply wastes of tax dollars exposes the sort of low caliber individual that you are. Assuming they conduct themselves honorably, their service is something that deserves respect and gratitude, not doubt from cowardly punks who know nothing of the the troubles that they face.

 

Actually, if I didn't show up for work, my organization would be in severe trouble since I'm one of only 2 programmers and am the only one who intimately knows a number of our systems.

 

Wow. Your organization must be real vital to society if it hinges on one dude. Something tells me the collapse of this Fortune 8,786,369,652 company wouldn't even make the local news. You keep telling yourself that you matter, pal.

Edited August 7, 2011 by The Sir

[farmteam]

Even better is the idea that America's heroes came home from Vietnam and the same miserable leftist scum who supported Roe v. Wade came out to greet them with spit and cries of "baby killer". If that isn't ironic, I don't know what is. There is a special place in Hell for those asswipes.

 

I agree that there's a special place in hell for those who denigrated our own members of the military. The way many were treated after they returned home was despicable.

 

However, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to support Roe v. Wade and public funding for abortions. I fail to see how there's a disconnect there -- enlighten me if I'm missing something.

[CrimsonWeltall]

This is a stupid point. Where is the line drawn?

 

Not sure, but it's certainly much lower than the current size of the military. Your complaints about government spending being too high come across as ridiculous when you're a part of it.

 

I'll admit my last sentence was snotty, and I apologize for that.

 

Wow. Your organization must be real vital to society if it hinges on one dude. Something tells me the collapse of this Fortune 8,786,369,652 company wouldn't even make the local news. You keep telling yourself that you matter, pal.

 

I provide a valuable service. Couldn't care less if you approve.

[The Sir]

I agree that there's a special place in hell for those who denigrated our own members of the military. The way many were treated after they returned home was despicable.

 

However, that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to support Roe v. Wade and public funding for abortions. I fail to see how there's a disconnect there -- enlighten me if I'm missing something.

 

It should be pretty obvious that we're not ever going to agree on abortion, at all, but I will at least commend you for thinking that our servicemen received despicable treatment upon returning home from Vietnam. I have my doubts that certain members of this board would disagree with their treatment.

[farmteam]

This is a stupid point. You don't know my skills as a Soldier, you're only telling me I could be dismissed without any real effect because I'm just one of many, just a face in the crowd. So I would only presume that you would tell any serviceman that his service is not needed. So where is the line drawn? If every Soldier took your advice to heart and stopped going to work, the military would cease to exist. And then we'd be defenseless.

 

And even if the military does need cuts, you going around and telling Soldiers that they are simply wastes of tax dollars exposes the sort of low caliber individual that you are. Assuming they conduct themselves honorably, their service is something that deserves respect and gratitude, not doubt from cowardly punks who know nothing of the the troubles that they face.

 

 

 

Wow. Your organization must be real vital to society if it hinges on one dude. Something tells me the collapse of this Fortune 8,786,369,652 company wouldn't even make the local news. You keep telling yourself that you matter, pal.

 

I disagree with CW's blunt statement. I think there is an important distinction between "unnecessary use of tax dollars" and telling a solider "You are a waste of tax dollars." The waste of tax dollars comes in politicians choosing to maintain a military of that size -- those who choose to serve in a military of that size are in no way at fault (they're simply accepting a job that's being offered -- the problem is that there's too many jobs offered), and deserve the utmost respect.

 

That said, your personal attacks (the last bit in this post, and the McDonald's comment) aren't helping anything. I realize CW was the aggressor here, but it somewhat hurts your point if you also engage in name-calling.

[farmteam]

It should be pretty obvious that we're not ever going to agree on abortion

 

Quite possible. However, my point was that I don't appreciate being called "miserable leftist scum" simply because I support public funding for abortions.

 

Granted, I realize that I hadn't entered the conversation before then (so it obviously was in no way a personal remark about me), and that this board often gets heated. But, the reason many of your posts somewhat anger me is because you often seem to paint with a very broad brush (something I'm guilty of when speaking about conservatives, I'm sure) when it comes to any position that is left-of-center. It's a lot harder to have a discussion if one party is only talking about what they think the other believes.

[jasonxctf]

Uhh, yeah, sure...if I don't show up for work on Monday, it will be my ass and the military will continue to function without me. It was here long before I showed up and it will be here long after I'm gone from this world. And it's like that for any Soldier. No Soldier means anything as an individual. But we do mean a lot as part of a team. The Army's all about teamwork.

 

But what would you know about that? You never served.

 

I'm just going to fire a warning shot here, no pun intended. We all have our beliefs, on a number of subjects. If you want to diminish those who have beliefs about military spending by dismissing them since they hadn't served in the military themselves, go ahead.

 

But I wonder... do you have any kids yourself? If not, and I don't know if you have or have not, wouldn't it be the same thing for me to dismiss your comments about abortion, since you've never created life or seen your creation enter the world and take its first breath?

 

 

[The Sir]

I'll admit my last sentence was snotty, and I apologize for that.

 

Apology accepted.

 

I provide a valuable service. Couldn't care less if you approve.

 

Well then, it appears we are in the same boat. Almost every male in my family (and even some females, such as my mother who did 27 years) has been in the service, and combined with my own service, I am fiercely proud of this tradition. Nothing you've said here will ever change my diehard belief in this mission, as mad as I might get in these discussions.

[The Sir]

those who choose to serve in a military of that size are in no way at fault (they're simply accepting a job that's being offered -- the problem is that there's too many jobs offered), and deserve the utmost respect.

 

I can respect this viewpoint.

[The Sir]

Quite possible. However, my point was that I don't appreciate being called "miserable leftist scum" simply because I support public funding for abortions.

 

I have some pretty hardcore views on abortion. And I see a lot of irony in people who support abortion calling American Soldiers "baby killers". But the main people I was referring to as "miserable leftist scum" were the ones who treated our Soldiers so horribly. If you support abortion, I will ardently disagree with you, but I won't have the supreme hatred for you that I do for those who abuse our Soldiers.

[Balta1701]

I have some pretty hardcore views on abortion. And I see a lot of irony in people who support abortion calling American Soldiers "baby killers". But the main people I was referring to as "miserable leftist scum" were the ones who treated our Soldiers so horribly. If you support abortion, I will ardently disagree with you, but I won't have the supreme hatred for you that I do for those who abuse our Soldiers.

In case you're unfamiliar with the work, there have been books written that argue quite persuasively that a huge majority of the "I was spit on at the airport" stories from Vietnam are exaggerations or are some version of PTSD reaction to deal with the war. Perhaps the most important note is that returnees from Vietnam rarely (at most) landed at civilian airports.

[southsider2k5]

In case you're unfamiliar with the work, there have been books written that argue quite persuasively that a huge majority of the "I was spit on at the airport" stories from Vietnam are exaggerations or are some version of PTSD reaction to deal with the war. Perhaps the most important note is that returnees from Vietnam rarely (at most) landed at civilian airports.

 

That story has always struck me as the left wing equivalent of trying the rape victim during a trial.

[The Sir]

That story has always struck me as the left wing equivalent of trying the rape victim during a trial.

 

Agreed. Everyone realizes how bad those actions look in hindsight, and now anyone who could possibly accused of being involved wants to erase those actions from history. But it's about as effective as the USSR erasing people from photographs after said people fell out out of favor. Just own up to it already.

[southsider2k5]

Agreed. Everyone realizes how bad those actions look in hindsight, and now anyone who could possibly accused of being involved wants to erase those actions from history. But it's about as effective as the USSR erasing people from photographs after said people fell out out of favor. Just own up to it already.

 

I don't get what "proof" you are going to have of something like this actually happening, other than eyewitness testimony, which is completely disqualified in this case. I also wouldn't expect the newspapers to be covering the homecomings like they do today. With the absolute hatred their was towards the war, and the demonization that took place of the military, why would they? Who is going to be turning out welcome back the "baby killers"? Returning from Vietnam was a traumatic experience for the boys coming back. They were scorned and shunned.

[Balta1701]

Agreed. Everyone realizes how bad those actions look in hindsight, and now anyone who could possibly accused of being involved wants to erase those actions from history. But it's about as effective as the USSR erasing people from photographs after said people fell out out of favor. Just own up to it already.

I'm not going to own up to something that is factually very unlikely to have happened more than a handful of times. If you're not willing to actually consider evidence then why are you even here?

[Balta1701]

I don't get what "proof" you are going to have of something like this actually happening, other than eyewitness testimony, which is completely disqualified in this case. I also wouldn't expect the newspapers to be covering the homecomings like they do today. With the absolute hatred their was towards the war, and the demonization that took place of the military, why would they? Who is going to be turning out welcome back the "baby killers"? Returning from Vietnam was a traumatic experience for the boys coming back. They were scorned and shunned.

Being in Vietnam and fighting an illegal war should probably have been considered a pretty traumatic experience for most of them as well.

[southsider2k5]

Being in Vietnam and fighting an illegal war should probably have been considered a pretty traumatic experience for most of them as well.

 

And yet so many people held it against them, and seemingly still do in some cases. That is the saddest part of all. Most had no choice but to go. And here people are 40 years later still trying to blame them for something.