whitesoxfan101 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 08:44 PM) Ballantini brings up a valid point though. This is Trader Kenny we're talking about here. We're 3 games out of 1st place at the trade deadline. Think about it. This is what makes the deadline so fascinating this year. All the talk is trading off parts, but we're 3 out. And Kenny is always in stealth mode. There is really nothing that could happen between now and the deadline that would surprise me. Also, side note, the comment about Joe Cowley being the only person you can trust about the Sox a few posts back is the funniest thing I've ever read on this board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:29 PM) They were also a far better team in 1997 than they have been this year. Offensively, no question about it, or for Frank Thomas, no doubt about it. Pitching-wise, they were brutal. They had Alvarez and Darwin were their only starters with ERAs under 5.00, and their bullpen wasn't much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 If KW does send Quentin and Thornton or other veterans packing, it is imperative the return works out. If its garbage, he needs to be shown the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:19 PM) Was Kenny selling veteran starters for middle relievers and prospects back then? This is true, although the '97 Indians weren't really all that great in the regular season either. Their rotation was bad (gave up 815 runs) and was anchored by injury-prone dinosaurs like Orel Herscheiser and Charlie Nagy. They caught lightning in a bottle with Jaret Wright and Chad Ogea in the playoffs and came within one inning of winning the WS. Just goes to show that you don't need a bulletproof team to win in the playoffs. The problem is that it was stated at the beginning of this season that if the White Sox didn't win to create a big interest in the fan base, they would have a hard time being a profitable organization. They aren't going to want to pay for these big names if the fans don't want to. And, if KW can rebuild on the fly while still remaining competitive this year instead of being slightly more competitive and imploding as an organization in the off season, I'm all for it. Now, if they're willing to keep spending to keep "filling" in our holes, I'm good with them staying pat right now too, but I just can't see us continually raising our payroll without actually generating much in the way of results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 08:31 PM) If Kenny had 6 starters, 1 of which was walking at the end of the year, and the option to dump a bad contract and get a reliever to help this year and a former high round SP too I think he'd do it. What don't you guys understand about playing to win? When you've invested almost $130M in a team, you're only 3 games out with two full months left to play, and the rest of the division sucks, you don't put your tail between your legs and quit on the season because a few of your big-money players have been underachieving so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) I'm pretty confident Kenny won't trade Q unless he gets an awesome package back. If he doesn't get what he wants, he'll just trade him this winter. The interesting dynamic here is that we're in the race, but if somebody overpays for Q now, it's hard to say no. Especially with his injury history. Edited July 29, 2011 by whitesoxfan101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:39 PM) The problem is that it was stated at the beginning of this season that if the White Sox didn't win to create a big interest in the fan base, they would have a hard time being a profitable organization. They aren't going to want to pay for these big names if the fans don't want to. And, if KW can rebuild on the fly while still remaining competitive this year instead of being slightly more competitive and imploding as an organization in the off season, I'm all for it. Now, if they're willing to keep spending to keep "filling" in our holes, I'm good with them staying pat right now too, but I just can't see us continually raising our payroll without actually generating much in the way of results. Therin lies the problem. If you think the GM even when given more money to spend cannot improve the team or at the very least are quite skeptical, shouldn't someone else be the GM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:41 PM) What don't you guys understand about playing to win? When you've invested almost $130M in a team, you're only 3 games out with two full months left to play, and the rest of the division sucks, you don't put your tail between your legs and quit on the season because a few of your big-money players have been underachieving so far. What don't you understand about not making money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:42 PM) Therin lies the problem. If you think the GM even when given more money to spend cannot improve the team or at the very least are quite skeptical, shouldn't someone else be the GM? Probably, but that's not exactly how the White Sox operate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 08:39 PM) The problem is that it was stated at the beginning of this season that if the White Sox didn't win to create a big interest in the fan base, they would have a hard time being a profitable organization. They'll have an even more difficult time being a profitable organization when they throw the 2011 season and they're draw 12,000 fans per game for the next three years. And, if KW can rebuild on the fly while still remaining competitive this year instead of being slightly more competitive and imploding as an organization in the off season, I'm all for it. "Rebuilding on the fly" is fine from November through March. You don't do it mid-season when you have a very legit shot at a division title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:42 PM) What don't you understand about not making money? JR said they had the money to cover any loss this season because he saved a little here and saved a little there. Maybe they get swept by Boston and are 6 out on Sunday and things are different, but pulling the plug when you are 3 out with mediocre at best teams in front of you will cost this organization more money in the next 3 or 4 years than not winning this year but still paying the current roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 08:42 PM) What don't you understand about not making money? So, the Sox are going to make money when they quit mid-season, piss off the fan base again, and draw 12,000 per game for the next couple of years? Or were you not paying attention in 1998 and 1999? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:45 PM) They'll have an even more difficult time being a profitable organization when they throw the 2011 season and they're draw 12,000 fans per game for the next three years. "Rebuilding on the fly" is fine from November through March. You don't do it mid-season when you have a very legit shot at a division title. Making the playoffs does nothing to guarantee that they don't "draw 12,000 fans," which is complete hyperbole and you know it, because they need a deep playoff run to keep this team in place for the next season. Otherwise, they're blowing it up regardless, and you might as well do it while you can apparently swindle the Phillies or Braves. It's a probability thing, and the way this team has played doesn't exactly make it seem likely that they will do much in the playoffs should they reach them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenksycat Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:41 PM) What don't you guys understand about playing to win? When you've invested almost $130M in a team, you're only 3 games out with two full months left to play, and the rest of the division sucks, you don't put your tail between your legs and quit on the season because a few of your big-money players have been underachieving so far. What don't you guys understand about the situations of Jackson and Quentin? If you get a ton for Quentin now, you do it and trust Vicedo to take his place. We're not resigning him in 2013. He'll make a ton next year. He can get hurt at any waking moment. This the absolute max his value will ever be and the perfect market. How does that not make sense? I'd want him to make that trade if we were 5 GB or 5 ahead. And he deals a guy who was walking at the end of the year and was also streaky, frees up some payroll to possibly make other moves, and makes a solid pen even better + gets a former top prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pants Rowland Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (oldsox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:25 PM) Manny and Thome were RBI machines. Alomar and Omar....Lofton....It was men against boys. ^^^This. That team was built around a juggernaut offense to go with average starters and, if I recall correctly, an above average bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103 mph screwball Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:36 PM) If KW does send Quentin and Thornton or other veterans packing, it is imperative the return works out. If its garbage, he needs to be shown the door. There seems to be a bit of a bidding war which helps to make sure he doesn't get garbage. Besides, if garbage is offered, there is no pressure to trade them. I'm hoping for a nice return that helps the future and changes somehow spark this years team. This has been the most frustrating team I can remember in that they were so good on paper and just stunk. A buddy of mine said it best. After the KC wild pitch loss, he said that he loved the Sox and always will, but he hates this team. I knew how he felt. July 28th and not even a 500 club. If TCQ can be traded to get Dominic Brown plus prospects and the Sox Q's allocated money to spend next year, that sounds good to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:50 PM) There seems to be a bit of a bidding war which helps to make sure he doesn't get garbage. Besides, if garbage is offered, there is no pressure to trade them. I'm hoping for a nice return that helps the future and changes somehow spark this years team. This has been the most frustrating team I can remember in that they were so good on paper and just stunk. A buddy of mine said it best. After the KC wild pitch loss, he said that he loved the Sox and always will, but he hates this team. I knew how he felt. July 28th and not even a 500 club. If TCQ can be traded to get Dominic Brown plus prospects and the Sox Q's allocated money to spend next year, that sounds good to me. I don't care if he gets the top ten ranked prospects in baseball. If they fail, he failed. Sorry, that's life. Trading away proven guys for prospects is always risky. Not everything goes as planned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:46 PM) So, the Sox are going to make money when they quit mid-season, piss off the fan base again, and draw 12,000 per game for the next couple of years? Or were you not paying attention in 1998 and 1999? I was only 7 or 8 at the time, but from hearing about it from some posters, it sounds like there was a much bigger picture to them drawing 12,000 than just the one trade. Failing to do much in the playoffs does more to harm this organization than "White Flag Part 2." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Sox have had up and down attendance since the 1994 strike. White Trade was the first year where people were starting to accept the team again and then a kick in the nads that was Mike Caruso. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:52 PM) I was only 7 or 8 at the time, but from hearing about it from some posters, it sounds like there was a much bigger picture to them drawing 12,000 than just the one trade. Failing to do much in the playoffs does more to harm this organization than "White Flag Part 2." I disagree. If they win the division, they will always be able to sell "we played like s*** and still won" and say they won't or can't be that bad again. Its never good to surrender when you have a very legitimate shot. They are 2 out in the loss column. Edited July 29, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Some of you need to go back and look at the attendance figures after the White Flag Trade. If the Sox pull that crap again, it'll be even worse. It's difficult to rebuild a winning franchise when there is no gate, parking, or concessions revenue coming in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:56 PM) Some of you need to go back and look at the attendance figures after the White Flag Trade. If the Sox pull that crap again, it'll be even worse. It's difficult to rebuild a winning franchise when there is no gate, parking, or concessions revenue coming in. This. When you can't draw without winning, it takes a long, long time to rebuild. Ask KC, Pittsburgh, Tampa, etc. I bet the youth movement would be fun for about half a season before everybody either complained or just didn't care. I'm all for trading Carlos if the package is right though. It's a smart move. An all out rebuild right now would really cripple this franchise for the better part of a decade. Edited July 29, 2011 by kjshoe04 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:56 PM) Some of you need to go back and look at the attendance figures after the White Flag Trade. If the Sox pull that crap again, it'll be even worse. It's difficult to rebuild a winning franchise when there is no gate, parking, or concessions revenue coming in. All I'm saying is that making money is more important than winning baseball games to the ownership. If they keep this team in tact and fail to make or do much in the playoffs, this organization will be set back years. KW may not be willing to take that risk, particularly when we can still win the division without Quentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:04 PM) All I'm saying is that making money is more important than winning baseball games to the ownership. If they keep this team in tact and fail to make or do much in the playoffs, this organization will be set back years. KW may not be willing to take that risk, particularly when we can still win the division without Quentin. BS. He can still trade Quentin and Thornton and Danks and Floyd in the offseason. Edited July 29, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:52 PM) I don't care if he gets the top ten ranked prospects in baseball. If they fail, he failed. Sorry, that's life. Trading away proven guys for prospects is always risky. Not everything goes as planned. Just like signing a oft injured vet to a huge contract while he's injured/fails most of the duration. Its all a risk, regardless of what he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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