gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:24 PM) You need to brush up on Sox history, little buddy. Fair point I suppose, despite the condescension. How similar is the pre-2005 fan base to the current, though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Chuck Garfien Big Hurt is a big fan of Dayan Viciedo. Believes he's ready, but thinks White Sox would regret trading Quentin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:29 PM) Fair point I suppose, despite the condescension. How similar is the pre-2005 fan base to the current, though? I think very similar. I think the bandwagon fans have jumped off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:27 PM) You have no idea what is being offered for Carlos Quentin. Neither of us have any idea if they would trade him for anything less than an absolutely amazing package. If even half the proposed package is ever offered, you do it, no questions asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance We're 19th in average attendance (damn weather) and I was being sarcastic. Trading Carlos for a couple of pieces that can contribute very soon or even right now and then calling up the Cuban Tank may not be a killer move as far as this season goes. This division is so bad we could be a game under .500 in the first week of September and still make a run. Maybe injecting some more youth is exactly what the doctor ordered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The Astros are "mulling" the Braves' offer for Pence, according to ESPN.com's Jayson Stark (on Twitter). The Braves' offer is "significant" and is built around highly-regarded pitching prospects, but does not include Julio Teheran, according to Stark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:30 PM) Neither of us have any idea if they would trade him for anything less than an absolutely amazing package. If even half the proposed package is ever offered, you do it, no questions asked. Where has there been a proposed package mentioned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:30 PM) I think very similar. I think the bandwagon fans have jumped off. I think it also depends on whether or not the casual fan thinks we are in this race, too. Most I know think they suck and have no chance. I'm sure our good friend Joe would be more than happy to spin it into KW and JR giving up on the fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:32 PM) Where has there been a proposed package mentioned? There have been rumors of Domonic Brown + others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:29 PM) Fair point I suppose, despite the condescension. How similar is the pre-2005 fan base to the current, though? Actually, I don't agree with the historical references. Things have changed. The Sox have a larger fan base now and a stadium that is actually enjoyable to go to and not the blue turd they once had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:33 PM) I think it also depends on whether or not the casual fan thinks we are in this race, too. Most I know think they suck and have no chance. I'm sure our good friend Joe would be more than happy to spin it into KW and JR giving up on the fans. Taking Quentin out of the Sox line up and not replacing him with a stud hitter would be pulling the plug on this season. I don't know about Viciedo's thumb. I'm very high on him, but to put all that on his back calling him up is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:27 PM) I think Sox fans are smarter than that. Keeping this same team is NOT trying to win in my opinion. It was just a few weeks ago that Viciedo was the talk of the town. It is not like they are trading Paully, Mark, or even AJ. It's a lateral move that saves money and builds for the future. No legs being cut off here. If the Sox dump payroll back to 58 million then we have big problems. If they retool and come back next year with more talent and a payroll of 110+, I will be excited again. On the other hand, keeping this same team gives them a much better chance of winning *right now* than trading productive vets for prospects and mediocre, non-impact veterans. Given that Kenny probably doesn't have the financial flexibility to do anything at this point, I'd just stand pat if I were him. Give these guys the chance to sink or swim. History shows that many of them (Dunn, Peavy, Rios, etc.) will eventually swim. If the Sox don't make the playoffs this year, I doubt that they'll be sporting a $110M payroll next year. It won't go down to $58M or anything like that but payroll will be significantly less, with Buehrle, Danks, Quentin, Pierre, and possibly Floyd off the books. I foresee next year being more of a classical rebuilding year than a retooling year. You can't retool on the fly indefinitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:34 PM) There have been rumors of Domonic Brown + others. No there has not. Those rumors were for Pence, not Quentin and they are rumors so you don't really even know if they are true. A lot of the stuff you read even by respected reporters is BS. The Sox can acquire a ton of prospects this winter if that's the route they choose. This season has been a bummer, but they are a good stretch away from being in first place. Edited July 29, 2011 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:37 PM) No there has not. Those rumors were for Pence, not Quentin and they are rumors so you don't really even know if they are true. A lot of the stuff you read even by respected reporters is BS. The Phillies are making progress toward a deal for Pence, but they'll have to reach an agreement by Friday or the Astros will move on to other suitors, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. The Phillies would include Jarred Cosart and Jonathan Singleton in a deal for Pence, according to FOX. The Astros prefer younger prospects and Domonic Brown is not currently in the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Yeah, I haven't seen Brown mentioned anywhere but a lot of people seem to think we can get him plus more for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:37 PM) No there has not. Those rumors were for Pence, not Quentin and they are rumors so you don't really even know if they are true. A lot of the stuff you read even by respected reporters is BS. I swear there was a tweet back a few pages saying Brown may have not been off limits for Quentin. Regardless, the whole idea of trading Quentin now is to take advantage of desperate teams in a bidding war. If that doesn't happen, there's obviously no reason to trade him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmbjeff Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 If Q goes and Viciedo comes up to play RF, we have to deal for a 3B in order to offset the loss of Q and replace Morel who just isn't getting it done. The only problem, what 3B could they get. ARam from the Cubs would be nice, but that option next year is too big. Any other 3B out there who can help right now? 3B is just so shallow nowadays. Ty Wigginton could be available and it gets real bad after that in the trade market. Hell Betemit was a top option to trade for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
103 mph screwball Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:33 PM) I think it also depends on whether or not the casual fan thinks we are in this race, too. Most I know think they suck and have no chance. I'm sure our good friend Joe would be more than happy to spin it into KW and JR giving up on the fans. Agreed. Which part would give them confidence to buy those tickets, the April bullpen debacle, the HISTORICALLY bad season for Dunn, the lazy mediocrity of Rios, the Peavy injury updates, the Ozzie being Ozzie, the complete lack of a winning streak? There are a lot of Sox fans that are disgusted and not just casual ones. Guys on message boards at midnight on a Thursday want to see changes too. There is tons of talent on the roster. Try something to change it up and hope for a spark. Joe is the only guy I unfollowed on twitter for being generally annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:29 PM) Fair point I suppose, despite the condescension. How similar is the pre-2005 fan base to the current, though? I'd imagine that there are a heck of a lot more season ticket-holders now than between 1995-2004... 1995: 1.6M 1996: 1.7M 1997: 1.9M 1998: 1.4M (White Flag Trade) 1999: 1.3M 2000: 1.9M (made the playoffs) 2001: 1.8M 2002: 1.7M 2003: 1.9M 2004: 1.9M 2005: 2.3M (WS) 2006-2010: 2.2-3.0M Season ticket-holders are key to being able to sign high-tier free agents and to acquire players with big contracts at the trade deadline. There's no way that Kenny could've made some of the moves that he's done over the past 5 years with the 1995-1999 revenues. Edited July 29, 2011 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:41 PM) I swear there was a tweet back a few pages saying Brown may have not been off limits for Quentin. Regardless, the whole idea of trading Quentin now is to take advantage of desperate teams in a bidding war. If that doesn't happen, there's obviously no reason to trade him. Just gonna go ahead and highlight that one a bit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:41 PM) I swear there was a tweet back a few pages saying Brown may have not been off limits for Quentin. Regardless, the whole idea of trading Quentin now is to take advantage of desperate teams in a bidding war. If that doesn't happen, there's obviously no reason to trade him. How much better of an acquisition is Carlos Quentin over Carlos Beltran? Granted Beltran is gone most likely in 2 months, you can't offer him arb, but you have to give Quentin arb money next year then he's gone. Wheeler was a pretty good prospect and the Mets had to eat a ton of money to get him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:43 PM) I'd imagine that there are a heck of a lot more season ticket-holders now than between 1995-2004... 1995: 1.6M 1996: 1.7M 1997: 1.9M 1998: 1.4M (White Flag Trade) 1999: 1.3M 2000: 1.9M (made the playoffs) 2001: 1.8M 2002: 1.7M 2003: 1.9M 2004: 1.9M 2005: 2.3M (WS) 2006-2010: 2.1-3.0M Season ticket-holders are key to being able to sign high-tier free agents and to acquire players with big contracts at the trade deadline. There's no way that Kenny could've made some of the moves that he's done over the past 5 years with the 1995-1999 revenues. Honestly, I think it's a lot simpler than you are making it. Win, and they will come. Lose, and they won't. I feel like under the conditions of preying on desperate teams the Sox can begin winning sooner, and, therefore, get the fans to come out sooner. In your numbers above, the Sox completely recovered from the white flag trade once they began winning again. Maybe you're right, and the fans get insulted by the management and become Cubs fans. But, the numbers above seem to imply otherwise. In any case, I don't really have anything else to say on the subject. Edited July 29, 2011 by gatnom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max power Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:52 PM) Honestly, I think it's a lot simpler than you are making it. Win, and they will come. Lose, and they won't. I feel like under the conditions of preying on desperate teams the Sox can begin winning sooner, and, therefore, get the fans to come out sooner. In your numbers above, the Sox completely recovered from the white flag trade once they began winning again. Maybe you're right, and the fans get insulted by the management and become Cubs fans, but the numbers above seem to imply otherwise. In any case, I don't really have anything else to say on the subject. I kind of agree. Had the 1999 white sox been contenders, I bet they would have still drawn close to 2 million. Of course, this is all speculation and no one knows for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 09:52 PM) Honestly, I think it's a lot simpler than you are making it. Win, and they will come. Lose, and they won't. I feel like under the conditions of preying on desperate teams the Sox can begin winning sooner, and, therefore, get the fans to come out sooner. In your numbers above, the Sox completely recovered from the white flag trade once they began winning again. It took a World Series win for the Sox to fully recover from the Strike and White Flag trade. They were drawing over 2M per year from 1991-1993 (and were on pace to draw that before the '94 strike) and didn't see that level of fan support again until 2005. Unless you can guarantee another ring in the next five years, quitting on this year's team is a pretty bad idea. Maybe you're right, and the fans get insulted by the management and become Cubs fans, but the numbers above seem to imply otherwise. I never said that they became Cubs fans, but Sox fans were *pissed* in 1994 and 1997 and expressed this anger with their wallets en masse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:43 PM) I'd imagine that there are a heck of a lot more season ticket-holders now than between 1995-2004... 1995: 1.6M 1996: 1.7M 1997: 1.9M 1998: 1.4M (White Flag Trade) 1999: 1.3M 2000: 1.9M (made the playoffs) 2001: 1.8M 2002: 1.7M 2003: 1.9M 2004: 1.9M 2005: 2.3M (WS) 2006-2010: 2.2-3.0M Season ticket-holders are key to being able to sign high-tier free agents and to acquire players with big contracts at the trade deadline. There's no way that Kenny could've made some of the moves that he's done over the past 5 years with the 1995-1999 revenues. Baseball as a whole also realized record revenues and attendance figures over the last decade (drew over 200 million more fans than the previous decade) and also, the Cell underwent some major renovations during the period of increase, so those would be factors as well. Season ticket holders are the hardcore fans and they definitely respond most favorably to winning, but the post-White Flag era days, all across the game, were very different than now, and there was no interleague play, no crosstown classic, no WS championship to remember, etc. So the argument of season ticket holders dropping off after a couple bad trades would hold some water, but trying to imply a return of some of the figures you mentioned is a pretty gigantic leap IMO. edit: scratch that, i forgot interleague play started that year... anyway, the game is still pretty different now, people have gotten past the strike, we have a title, the cell is different, etc... i don't think trading quentin kills us, basically Edited July 29, 2011 by Kenny Hates Prospects Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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