gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:01 AM) It took a World Series win for the Sox to fully recover from the Strike and White Flag trade. They were drawing over 2M per year from 1991-1993 (and were on pace to draw that before the '94 strike) and didn't see that level of fan support again until 2005. Unless you can guarantee another ring in the next five years, quitting on this year's team is a pretty bad idea. I never said that they became Cubs fans, but Sox fans were *pissed* in 1994 and 1997 and expressed this anger with their wallets en masse. The Sox recovered from the White Flag trade in 2 years according to your numbers. Did the fans hate the Sox more because of JR's threats to move the team to Florida along with the strike or because of the trade? From what I hear it was more than just the trade despite the fact that you are attributing more to the trade than just about anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircaffey Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:04 AM) Baseball as a whole also realized record revenues and attendance figures over the last decade (drew over 200 million more fans than the previous decade) and also, the Cell underwent some major renovations during the period of increase, so those would be factors as well. Season ticket holders are the hardcore fans and they definitely respond most favorably to winning, but the post-White Flag era days, all across the game, were very different than now, and there was no interleague play, no crosstown classic, no WS championship to remember, etc. So the argument of season ticket holders dropping off after a couple bad trades would hold some water, but trying to imply a return of some of the figures you mentioned is a pretty gigantic leap IMO. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 It won't go down to $58M or anything like that but payroll will be significantly less, with Buehrle, Danks, Quentin, Pierre, and possibly Floyd off the books If we lose Mark, Danks and Floyd, our pitching will be as bad as our hitting and it'll be a 55-win team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:04 PM) Season ticket holders are the hardcore fans and they definitely respond most favorably to winning, but the post-White Flag era days occurred, all across the game, were very different than now, and there was no interleague play, no crosstown classic, no WS championship to remember, etc. Interleague Play began in 1997. So the argument of season ticket holders dropping off after a couple bad trades would hold some water, but trying to imply a return of some of the figures you mentioned is a pretty gigantic leap IMO. "A couple of bad trades" is a hell of a lot different than "completely giving up on a competitive team." If you don't want to take my word for it, ask some of the 30+ crowd here about the fan reaction to the White Flag Trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapzk Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 LOL @ Pence's Wikipedia page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (gatnom @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:06 PM) The Sox recovered from the White Flag trade in 2 years according to your numbers. They didn't really "recover," given what attendance was like from '91-'94. It was more like a prolonged recession of below-average ticket sales. Attendance was stuck in the 1.7-1.9M range from 1998 until they won the WS. Good luck competing with the Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels, who all draw roughly a million more per year, with below-average attendance. Did the fans hate the Sox more because of JR's threats to move the team to Florida along with the strike or because of the trade? From what I hear it was more than just the trade despite the fact that you are attributing more to the trade than just about anything else. Threatening to move to Florida and backing out of that was nothing in comparison to '94 and '97. Edited July 29, 2011 by WCSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (kapzk @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:14 AM) LOL @ Pence's Wikipedia page f***ING LOL. Edited July 29, 2011 by Quinarvy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapzk Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 01:18 AM) f***ING LOL. hahaha ya went from being a Phillie to acheerleader on the Philadelphia Eagles to a Playboy bunny on Team Hamels and now a member of Hogwarts, wonder whats next Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Hysterical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:15 AM) They didn't really "recover," given what attendance was like from '91-'94. It was more like a prolonged recession of below-average ticket sales. Attendance was stuck in the 1.7-1.9M range from 1998 until they won the WS. Good luck competing with the Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels, who all draw roughly a million more per year, with below-average attendance. Threatening to move to Florida and backing out of that was nothing in comparison to '94 and '97. What do these years have to do with the trade itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metz Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (kapzk @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:20 AM) hahaha ya went from being a Phillie to acheerleader on the Philadelphia Eagles to a Playboy bunny on Team Hamels and now a member of Hogwarts, wonder whats next it now says f*** houston and that he gives head on the side bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (kapzk @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:20 AM) hahaha ya went from being a Phillie to acheerleader on the Philadelphia Eagles to a Playboy bunny on Team Hamels and now a member of Hogwarts, wonder whats next An outfielder for the Astros "He loved to watch the moonrise." Edited July 29, 2011 by Quinarvy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The Astros are deep into trade talks and could deal Pence as soon as Friday, according to Zachary Levine of the Houston Chronicle, who confirms that the Phillies are the leading candidate to acquire the outfielder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:09 AM) Interleague Play began in 1997. "A couple of bad trades" is a hell of a lot different than "completely giving up on a competitive team." If you don't want to take my word for it, ask some of the 30+ crowd here about the fan reaction to the White Flag Trade. I really don't think trading Quentin is giving up though. If I thought that and wanted to see us give up, I would be advocating trading John Danks, since his value is greater than CQ, or Floyd, whose value is also greater than CQ. I want to win this year, but I also would make a deal where we get significant pieces back for Q while bringing up Viciedo. CQ right now is better than Dayan, but CQ is also having a decent-for-Carlos year, but not a great-for-Carlos year, and at any time he could simply disappear again. The difference defensively may be a wash, and offensively may not turn out to be as significant as some may think. OTOH, Peavy is antique china and Humber I still do not trust. Another young SP would really make me feel better about this season. Bruney scares the hell out of me too. Frasor helps a LOT, but pushing Bruney back to Charlotte would really make me excited about our pen. I feel it is reasonable to assume we could pull off a deal that makes us at least as good if not better than we are now, with the difference between Viciedo and Q being made up elsewhere. And as a bonus, maybe we end up with a bit of a change in culture/clubhouse atmosphere, which might not be a bad thing right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapzk Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 its getting better each time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry — No. 9 The boy who saved the Phillies" Wiki-trolls are awesome. "Adult Entertainment Industry — No. 9 Fluffer" "2011 - Halleeday Fangirl #1" "High Class Stripper" "Pence is 8' 11" tall and weighs 900 pounds." Almost as fun as the Hot Stove. "From an early age, Pence was a huge supporter of are troops, realizing that they our the reason for are freedom! He was also an avid collector of Manga, which he continues today." Edited July 29, 2011 by Quinarvy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kapzk Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I wonder what Quentin will go through Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (kapzk @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:27 AM) I wonder what Quentin will go through A comedic genius would just put a photo of angry Quentin up and no words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heirdog Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 The attendance discussion in a trade winds thread is annoying. You come on after a LNG break and see 12+ pgs to the Q thread...but then the disappointment with some nonsense discussion on attendance figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (heirdog @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:29 PM) The attendance discussion in a trade winds thread is annoying. You come on after a LNG break and see 12+ pgs to the Q thread...but then the disappointment with some nonsense discussion on attendance figures. If the tread title trades - then you won't be disappointed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) Nothing gets better than it is now. Hunter Hunter Hunter (born April 13, 1983, in Arlington, Texas) is a outfielder for the Houston Astros. Pence is 8' 11" tall and weighs 900 pounds. He bats and throws with his penis. Hunter "Support Are Troops" Pence Houston Astros — No. 9 Miracle Worker 2011 World Series champion 2011 World Series MVP 2012 World Series champion 2012 World Series MVP On July 29, 2011, Pence was traded to the Philadelphia Phillies for RHP Wilson Valdez, 1B/OF Ross Gload, and Gload's hoveround. 2011 - Went to the zoo with Roy Halladay 2011- Enjoyed a steak dinner with Brett Favre Edited July 29, 2011 by Quinarvy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metz Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:24 AM) "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry — No. 9 The boy who saved the Phillies" Wiki-trolls are awesome. "Adult Entertainment Industry — No. 9 Fluffer" "2011 - Halleeday Fangirl #1" "High Class Stripper" "Pence is 8' 11" tall and weighs 900 pounds." Almost as fun as the Hot Stove. "From an early age, Pence was a huge supporter of are troops, realizing that they our the reason for are freedom! He was also an avid collector of Manga, which he continues today." "On July 29, 2011, Pence was traded to the Philadelphia Phillies for RHP Wilson Valdez, 1B/OF Ross Gload, and Gload's hoveround." 2011 - Went to the zoo with Roy Halladay Edited July 29, 2011 by The '05 Sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 10:23 PM) I really don't think trading Quentin is giving up though. If I thought that and wanted to see us give up, I would be advocating trading John Danks, since his value is greater than CQ, or Floyd, whose value is also greater than CQ. I want to win this year, but I also would make a deal where we get significant pieces back for Q while bringing up Viciedo. I just don't agree with this. Quentin is 1/2 of our productive offensive players right now and dealing him would severely hurt this team's chances of winning the division. Take CQ out of the lineup and Paulie will be pitched around 2-3 times per game. Even if Viciedo has recovered from his injury, expecting him to put up an .860 OPS down the stretch is wishful thinking. And I am very high on Dayan over the long run. He's just not a proven commodity at this point. Isn't Quentin still under team control in 2012? Why not just deal him in December? Sure, you'll get less in return, but you won't have to tank you playoff chances this year. OTOH, Peavy is antique china and Humber I still do not trust. Another young SP would really make me feel better about this season. I completely agree with this, and this is why I was pissed about the Jackson trade. In addition to being a very solid back-of-the-rotation guy, he was a great insurance policy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 QUOTE (WCSox @ Jul 29, 2011 -> 12:35 AM) I just don't agree with this. Quentin is 1/2 of our productive offensive players right now and dealing him would severely hurt this team's chances of winning the division. Take CQ out of the lineup and Paulie will be pitched around 2-3 times per game. Even if Viciedo has recovered from his injury, expecting him to put up an .860 OPS down the stretch is wishful thinking. And I am very high on Dayan over the long run. He's just not a proven commodity at this point. Isn't Quentin still under team control in 2012? Why not just deal him in December? Sure, you'll get less in return, but you won't have to tank you playoff chances this year. I completely agree with this, and this is why I was pissed about the Jackson trade. In addition to being a very solid back-of-the-rotation guy, he was a great insurance policy. I don't expect Viciedo to necessarily light the world on fire, but I do expect him to be good, and I do expect him to drive in some runs. I'll put it this way: if the Sox don't trade Q, I won't be pissed about it. If the Sox do trade Q, and they pick up a couple (or 3) very good-looking young players, and at least one of them is going to contribute right now in addition to Viciedo, then I won't be pissed about it. If the Sox trade Q and get back a future #4 starter and a couple toolsy projects with an ETA of 2014 then I will be f***ing irate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (dmbjeff @ Jul 28, 2011 -> 11:43 PM) If Q goes and Viciedo comes up to play RF, we have to deal for a 3B in order to offset the loss of Q and replace Morel who just isn't getting it done. The only problem, what 3B could they get. ARam from the Cubs would be nice, but that option next year is too big. Any other 3B out there who can help right now? 3B is just so shallow nowadays. Ty Wigginton could be available and it gets real bad after that in the trade market. Hell Betemit was a top option to trade for. Then there's no point in getting rid of Quentin. Ramirez is an over the hill veteran, having a good year, but is not the player Quentin is. These veterans past their prime are what put is into this state of just above mediocrity. Our defense would take a dive too. Edited July 29, 2011 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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