AND THATS A wHITE SOX WINNER!!!

[southsider2k5]

I agree. Or one of them and Quentin for minor league players. What has been done so far clearly isn't White Flag. I just contest that the circumstances right now that the team's in are similar to what they were in 1997. And for someone to say 1997 wasn't a White Flag trade is laughable, not even worth a discussion.

97 was a total surrender.

[Pants Rowland]

I agree. Or one of them and Quentin for minor league players. What has been done so far clearly isn't White Flag. I just contest that the circumstances right now that the team's in are similar to what they were in 1997. And for someone to say 1997 wasn't a White Flag trade is laughable, not even worth a discussion.

 

Look junior, take a minute and reread what I said. I never said it wasn't a surrender nor did I say that large scale trading off of talent now wouldn't be a concession. What I basically said was I hate that specific reference to the trade with the Giants in 1997 and wish people would stop bringing it up. Revisionist historians who capitalize the W and the F in white flag, referencing 7/31/97 as a specific dark day in time clearly don't remember how mediocre the '97 team was. We can all debate the quality of return on Hernandez, Alvarez, and Darwin, but only Hernandez had much of a career after 1997. It was b.s. the way the media and fans jumped all over JR and the Sox for making that trade. It needed to be done and actually helped put the Sox on track to re-establish themselves in the division three seasons later.

[whitesoxfan101]

Look junior, take a minute and reread what I said. I never said it wasn't a surrender nor did I say that large scale trading off of talent now wouldn't be a concession. What I basically said was I hate that specific reference to the trade with the Giants in 1997 and wish people would stop bringing it up. Revisionist historians who capitalize the W and the F in white flag, referencing 7/31/97 as a specific dark day in time clearly don't remember how mediocre the '97 team was. We can all debate the quality of return on Hernandez, Alvarez, and Darwin, but only Hernandez had much of a career after 1997. It was b.s. the way the media and fans jumped all over JR and the Sox for making that trade. It needed to be done and actually helped put the Sox on track to re-establish themselves in the division three seasons later.

 

Junior? I'd rather be a "junior" than a crotchety old man.

 

The White Flag trade was not a dark day in White Sox history. It ended up helping in 2000, as you said. People defending it by saying how great Cleveland was that year are just wrong though. They went 86-75. The Sox standings position in late July of 1997 (record and games back) was basically identical to what it is now as well. The fact of the matter is, no matter how much you may not like it, trading away players for kids when only a few games out of first is going to piss most people off. And, it's a sign of throwing in the towel when in the race. You're not winning that battle.

 

It didn't really help establish anything, either. The Sox had a great season in 2000, but were promptly swept and missed the playoffs the four years after that, as everybody knows.

Edited July 28, 2011 by whitesoxfan101

[Pants Rowland]

Junior? I'd rather be a "junior" than a crotchety old man.

 

The White Flag trade was not a dark day in White Sox history. It ended up helping in 2000, as you said. People defending it by saying how great Cleveland was that year are just wrong though. They went 86-75. The Sox standings position in late July of 1997 (record and games back) was basically identical to what it is now as well. The fact of the matter is, no matter how much you may not like it, trading away players for kids when only a few games out of first is going to piss most people off. And, it's a sign of throwing in the towel when in the race. You're not winning that battle.

 

It didn't really help establish anything, either. The Sox had a great season in 2000, but were promptly swept and missed the playoffs the four years after that, as everybody knows.

 

I like being a crotchety old man. ;-)

 

I am not concerned with Cleveland's record as much as how lousy the Sox looked. I also recall Cleveland was the class of the division talent-wise and were pretty much toying with the Sox. Fact is they won the pennant and came close to winning it all. Record be damned, that was a better team and no matter how close the Sox could have gotten, the odds of them actually overtaking the tribe that year was remote at best. Yes, the Sox mismanaged a lot of their opportunities after that, but it could have been way worse than '98 and '99 if they hadn't made the trade.

[southsider2k5]

Junior? I'd rather be a "junior" than a crotchety old man.

 

The White Flag trade was not a dark day in White Sox history. It ended up helping in 2000, as you said. People defending it by saying how great Cleveland was that year are just wrong though. They went 86-75. The Sox standings position in late July of 1997 (record and games back) was basically identical to what it is now as well. The fact of the matter is, no matter how much you may not like it, trading away players for kids when only a few games out of first is going to piss most people off. And, it's a sign of throwing in the towel when in the race. You're not winning that battle.

 

It didn't really help establish anything, either. The Sox had a great season in 2000, but were promptly swept and missed the playoffs the four years after that, as everybody knows.

 

You really don't remember 1997 then because it destroyed that team and the public perception for years.

[Balta1701]

You really don't remember 1997 then because it destroyed that team and the public perception for years.

My parents had a subscription to Time Magazine back then for some reason and the week after that trade Time actually featured the White Sox in their "Up and down week" Conventional Wisdom bit. They said that "Greedy owner forces team to sell off players, they coulda been a contender" or something close to that.

[Pants Rowland]

You really don't remember 1997 then because it destroyed that team and the public perception for years.

 

I remember 1997 and agree that the team suffered for years in the aftermath of the trade. In my opinion, however, the strike and the subsequent total lack of attendance were the main culprits for the White Sox demise. The trade was just another symptom of the core problem that everyone hated JR for ruining the Sox's best chance at a title in our lifetimes. The Sox were arguably the best team and organization in the league in 1994 and it all went in the s***ter once the strike ended. The players were not prepared for the 1995 season, Cleveland buried them in embarrassing fashion the next two seasons and the fans had no reason to come back, even if they wanted to do so. The trade just gave the press a great opportunity to make headlines with all the "White Flag" commentary. I thought the rebuilding idea was still a good one. The top prospects had not panned out and Cleveland, no matter the record, was a far more talented team and deeper organization. I did not necessarily love the return package they got from the Giants, but Foulke and Howry did turn out to be good performers and they were able to take the division and become relevant again for the next decade.