Kalapse Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:13 PM) I don't think it necessarily is a surrender. Stewart has pitched in the bigs this year. Wasn't bad. Offense gets much better then even better when Viciedo is healthy and called up. Only need 4 starters for the playoffs anyway and we have the depth in the bullpen to overcome some starter problems. Anyway I was being " creative" .That's what Kenny needs to with some of these big salaries and under performing players. Pretty sure Young wouldn't under perform as he's been on fire lately. He allowed 23 baserunners in 9.2 IP in his 2 outings against DET and ATL after his big league debut vs Baltimore. Overall he had a 1.86 WHIP before being demoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mataipaepae Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 the rangers have a couple of guys that kenny is looking for in young left handed hitter. engel beltre a young (21) left handed hitting center fielder. is not far from getting up to the league either. won't hit alot of homeruns but has + range and arm strength. also has tons of speed. basically a younger pierre but a much, much better outfielder. jake skole has a huge ceiling. can play all three positions in the outfield. has tons of speed too. has more pop than beltre. and is only 19. mike olt granted he hits right handed he is a power 3B. with a good glove. was a shortstop and has made the switch to 3B. here is their top ten with all three of these guys. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y20...ex.jsp?c_id=atl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:17 PM) It's only one tiny piece of their future and they'd still have Danks for next year too and can work on extending him. 3 of their top 4 prospects are pitchers and weren't included in my trade. It doesn't work that way. Extend him? What? 5/75? When you already have a guy on the cheap that can give you similar production and very well improve? And then you want to toss in Peavy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwolf68 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 02:18 PM) He allowed 23 baserunners in 9.2 IP in his 2 outings against DET and ATL after his big league debut vs Baltimore. Overall he had a 1.86 WHIP before being demoted. Stewart is NOT a starting pitcher in the bigs at this point. AT BEST he's another useful arm in the bullpen in middle relief. This guy does not have good secondary stuff and his fastball isn't good enough for him to be a one-pitch pitcher. He needs work, it's laughable to think he could be installed into our rotation as a replacement for Danks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 12:50 PM) SI_JonHeyman Jon Heyman #yankees indeed among teams to inquire about available matt thornton. #chsox, #tradedeadline Not exactly difficult to figure out why Kenny is dangling Thornton, aside from the contract, frightening start to the season and our good of lefty reliever depth Matt Thornton is a hot commodity on the trade market, get a few teams bidding against each other and we could get a very nice return. Several red flags with Thornton this season. And he turns 35 in about a month. Moving him clears over $12M in future payroll obligations. Our bullpen is deep. Thornton seems the most likely White Sox moving at the deadline to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Honestly, there's no reason for Thornton to be on the team 25 1/2 hours from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:23 PM) Honestly, there's no reason for Thornton to be on the team 25 1/2 hours from now. It would be uncomfortable facing him in the playoffs if the Sox somehow find a way to get there. But yeah, he got closer money when they thought he would close, and with 2 years/12 mil due him after this season, I can't blame them for moving that contract now if the return is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:23 PM) Honestly, there's no reason for Thornton to be on the team 25 1/2 hours from now. There certainly is...a win today and a big lead tomorrow would go a long way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:20 PM) Stewart is NOT a starting pitcher in the bigs at this point. AT BEST he's another useful arm in the bullpen in middle relief. This guy does not have good secondary stuff and his fastball isn't good enough for him to be a one-pitch pitcher. He needs work, it's laughable to think he could be installed into our rotation as a replacement for Danks. Not replacing Danks but he could absolutely be a 5th starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 11:18 AM) He allowed 23 baserunners in 9.2 IP in his 2 outings against DET and ATL after his big league debut vs Baltimore. Overall he had a 1.86 WHIP before being demoted. 1 good start 2 bad . Small sample size besides I don't expect anything that much from him right now except to be a replacement and get some instruction from Coop. Like I said we have relievers to overcome some starter problems. Everything can't be perfect. Can't have 5 quality starters, great bullpen and good offense when you are .500 now while trying to get rid of some salary and improve the ball club. Might end up hurting the club with Young's defense and Stewart pitching but also might help with improved offense. Gotta roll the dice . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenny Hates Prospects Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I would fall head over heels in love with a deal that sends out Thornton + Humber while getting back Holland and a spect. Holland IMO is going to be the best player in that deal, no doubt. I would likewise enjoy shipping Will Ohs*** to the Red Sox or Yankees. Bruney can go there to. Then ( ) maybe they can help us beat those guys in the playoffs ***WHEN, not IF*** we get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 11:20 AM) Stewart is NOT a starting pitcher in the bigs at this point. AT BEST he's another useful arm in the bullpen in middle relief. This guy does not have good secondary stuff and his fastball isn't good enough for him to be a one-pitch pitcher. He needs work, it's laughable to think he could be installed into our rotation as a replacement for Danks. Holland would be the replacement for Danks. Stewart and bullpen would replace Peavy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:26 PM) There certainly is...a win today and a big lead tomorrow would go a long way... The next two games won't impact whether or not anymore deals are made. If KW can get a suitable haul for Thornton, he's outta here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwolf68 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 02:28 PM) Stewart and bullpen would replace Peavy. Huh? Much as JP has struggled, Stewart has no chance of matching even the middling performance he has given thus far. Zach Stewart belongs NOWHERE near ANY rotation at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:28 PM) The next two games won't impact whether or not anymore deals are made. If KW can get a suitable haul for Thornton, he's outta here. They probably shouldn't from a organizational standpoint, but whether we like it or not, Kenny is going to think about how the average fan is going to react to such a trade. Thornton is a fan favorite, has been here for many years, and is still an elite BP arm. Unless he gets a player he really wants, I don't see Matt getting moved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 06:26 PM) There certainly is...a win today and a big lead tomorrow would go a long way... Sale and Ohman are perfectly capable of being the lefties out of the pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattchoo Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) I know this is old hat... but it bothers me whenever I think about it.... the trade last year was one of the worse trades KW has made. All these "top" prospects are barely comparable to Dan Hudson in my opinion. There isn't one person in the world that could convince me that trading Dan Hudson for Edwin Jackson was a smart move. EVEN IF THE CORRESPONDING RUMORED DUNN DEAL WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. Hudson for Dunn is moronic. Hudson was under control at a low cost for many more years, and he looked like a LEGIT #3 starter in the AL at age 22! I have not been able to get past that bad trade. As much as I am following all the White Sox rumors, KW ruined my faith in his decision making and where this team is heading. I'm sure he'll either trade Thornton for garbage that will not work out, or he'll stand pat and the Sox will miss the playoffs by 3 or 4 games. Edited July 30, 2011 by Mattchoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 11:20 AM) It doesn't work that way. Extend him? What? 5/75? When you already have a guy on the cheap that can give you similar production and very well improve? And then you want to toss in Peavy? Hey anyone can pick apart a trade proposal. We all dissect every move KW makes. Winning World Series are rare unless you're the Yankees. You want to win so you don't always have an eye on your future especially when you are pretty close right now. Throwing in Peavy because lets face it he's been injured and costs a ton of money . The sooner we dump him the better but he is very useful for 5 innings and his contract is similar to Young's . Come up with something better while dumping salary and let everyone pick you apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:33 PM) Sale and Ohman are perfectly capable of being the lefties out of the pen. I still don't trust Ohman as much as Matt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjshoe04 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:38 PM) I still don't trust Ohman as much as Matt. Of course not but he'd just be the second lefty. We also have Frasor now to step into more of a late inning role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:26 PM) 1 good start 2 bad . Small sample size besides I don't expect anything that much from him right now except to be a replacement and get some instruction from Coop. Like I said we have relievers to overcome some starter problems. Everything can't be perfect. Can't have 5 quality starters, great bullpen and good offense when you are .500 now while trying to get rid of some salary and improve the ball club. Might end up hurting the club with Young's defense and Stewart pitching but also might help with improved offense. Gotta roll the dice . I know the sample is small, you said he wasn't bad, he allowed more than 2 baserunners per inning after his debut and 1.86 per inning overall, if that's not bad then I'm not sure what it is. I'm not commenting on any of these unfeasable trade proposals. There's not much that indicates that Stewart is ready to be a big league starting pitcher -- some would say he doesn't have the stuff to ever be one (Kevin Goldstein) -- he was allowing a bunch of baserunners in AA prior to his promotion (1.50 WHIP in May) during his promotion (1.86 WHIP) and since his demotion (1.37 WHIP in July). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (kwolf68 @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 11:30 AM) Huh? Much as JP has struggled, Stewart has no chance of matching even the middling performance he has given thus far. Zach Stewart belongs NOWHERE near ANY rotation at this point. I proposed a trade that gives salary relief and improves the offense. I got some saying Texas wouldn't do it and I'm leaning that way also if I had to dissect my own proposal. You're saying because we have to use Stewart in the 5th hole for 2 months you wouldn't do it ? You think that would crush the whole chance to beat the Tigers ? I think you should try proposing a trade. It's a roll of the dice sure but aren't all trades ? Have some balls and see what you come up with. Doesn't take any balls at all to find flaws in a trade idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (Mattchoo @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 01:35 PM) I know this is old hat... but it bothers me whenever I think about it.... the trade last year was one of the worse trades KW has made. All these "top" prospects are barely comparable to Dan Hudson in my opinion. There isn't one person in the world that could convince me that trading Dan Hudson for Edwin Jackson was a smart move. EVEN IF THE CORRESPONDING RUMORED DUNN DEAL WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. Hudson for Dunn is moronic. Hudson was under control at a low cost for many more years, and he looked like a LEGIT #3 starter in the AL at age 22! I have not been able to get past that bad trade. As much as I am following all the White Sox rumors, KW ruined my faith in his decision making and where this team is heading. I'm sure he'll either trade Thornton for garbage that will not work out, or he'll stand pat and the Sox will miss the playoffs by 3 or 4 games. But hasn't Phil Humber pitched better than Daniel Hudson, not even taking into account the league difference/s? And we control his rights for the same amount of time as the DBacks do Hudson... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 QUOTE (Kalapse @ Jul 30, 2011 -> 11:45 AM) I know the sample is small, you said he wasn't bad, he allowed more than 2 baserunners per inning after his debut and 1.86 per inning overall, if that's not bad then I'm not sure what it is. I'm not commenting on any of these unfeasable trade proposals. There's not much that indicates that Stewart is ready to be a big league starting pitcher -- some would say he doesn't have the stuff to ever be one (Kevin Goldstein) -- he was allowing a bunch of baserunners in AA prior to his promotion (1.50 WHIP in May) during his promotion (1.86 WHIP) and since his demotion (1.37 WHIP in July). Semantics. OK he was mediocre or less than good. Who cares. I don't see you ever trying to propose a trade. You're great at throwing numbers out there to prove your points. Throw Sale into the rotation promote Infante and Santiago. I really don't care how you take care of the 5th starter spot for 2 months. I don't think it's as important as the salary relief or the better offense. A trade is all about rolling the dice. Win some lose some. The point is you can't be afraid to try. Can you see KW trying to sit here and defend some of the moves he's made ? It's impossible to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Sale would take at least 4 weeks before he'd even be ready to start and go 5-6 innings. Maybe 5 or 6. They'd be better off using Doug Davis or Hector Santiago. There aren't very many good options. Stewart's not ready, and it seems Cooper might ask to work with him as the long man first out of the bullpen before they're ready to consider him as a starter. Probably we won't see him (Stewart or Sale, for that matter) get a start until SEPT or more than likely spring training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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