JM and the Bullpen

[Wong & Owens]

I'm not exactly a supporter of how JM uses our relief pitchers, but I also am not one who believes in pampering major league pitchers to the tune of a 40 inning season. Here's an article that points out some interesting stats about our relievers, specifically Flash and Damaso:

 

Before getting released by the White Sox and picked up by Houston, Rick White said the Sox would be in trouble down the stretch if manager Jerry Manuel didn't cut back on the workload of Damaso Marte and Tom Gordon.

 

Truth be told, neither Marte nor Gordon ranks in the top 10 among innings for American League relievers. Marte is tied for sixth with 52 appearances, nine fewer than Toronto's Trever Miller and eight fewer than Kansas City's Jason Grimsley.

 

But Marte has been used extensively since July 1, appearing in 16 games for 212/3 innings. He has a 0.83 ERA during that span.

 

Gordon has worked 16 innings in 13 games since July 1, posting a 3.94 ERA. After 10 scoreless outings, he has allowed seven runs in his last three appearances.

 

Overall the Sox's bullpen has worked 2931/3 innings, fourth fewest in the American League.

[Texsox]

Whenever JM goes to the bullpen I am reminded of Ol' Mother Hubbard. He ain't got a lot of choices in a tight division race. The plan was for Koch not Botch.

 

The bullpen is probably the toughest area for the manager when it goes bad. Mistakes trying to get something settled usually result in blown games under a magnifying glass. I have a hard time being too critical with his handling of the pen, but some of his blunders have been inexplicable.

 

Is he the worst manager in the majors? Probably not but I certainly feel the team is playing better than he is managing. KC is the opposite, Pena is managing better then they are playing.

[DonkeyKongerko]

I think Carlos Tosca is the worst bullpen manager in baseball.

[VAfan]

I think JM doesn't give ENOUGH work to Marte and Gordon, frankly. In the stretch of games just out of the ASB but before we went to KC, JM went to Marte and Gordon a lot. But if you were watching those games, the more JM used Marte and Gordon, the sharper they became. In one outing, Gordon was 0-2 on just about every hitter. Marte too. Then he "rested" them and neither were as sharp in the KC game we eventually won 8-6.

 

One thing JM does is push both beyond a single inning, and perhaps this is where he should adjust, using both in 1-inning stints more often.

[Jordan4life_2003]

I agree... I'm no Manuel fan. But if White and Botch had pitched like they were supposed to I don't think u would see Manuel doin all this dumb ass s*** with the pen...

[IlliniKrush]

There are certainly some exceptions to this, but i've heard this time and again

 

When the bullpen is clicking, the manager is a genius (because every move works anyway)

 

When the bullpen is struggling as a whole the manager is an idiot (because every move backfires)

 

To a large extent, this is true. Hell, any one of us could manage a bullpen if all the guys had sub 4 ERA's and sub 1.30 WHIPS. So, if White and Koch were on, would it matter what JM did? Not really

 

That being said, i do think when manuel tends to overwork some of our guys (again, does he have a choice), and sometimes messes around too much with leaving starters in/taking them out. If he goes to the pen early and he blows it (schoeneweis), he gets hammered. In that same situation, if the pen comes in and gives up no runs the rest of the way, he won't get blasted nearly as much.

 

The managers job is to put players in the best position possible to succeed. That's what you have to judge JM by. For the most part this year he has done that, judging by what he has to work with. Of course there have been enough exceptions to this to talk about.

[Bmr31]

Everyone needs a role, and stick to that role. Thats all JM has to do, to fix his managing flaws in the pen.

[LDF]

Everyone needs a role, and stick to that role.  Thats all JM has to do, to fix his managing flaws in the pen.

if he had some pitchers there who could do the job.

 

who is #5, how bout a reliever, a set up man, a long reliever?

 

there is some problems and jm is trying to find the right combo.

[Bmr31]

if he had some pitchers there who could do the job.

 

who is #5, how bout a reliever, a set up man, a long reliever?

 

there is some problems and jm is trying to find the right combo.

Every team has the problems. Thats just a pathetic excuse Jerry probably likes to use. He has talent out there. In fact, going into 2003, the sox were known to have one of the best pens in baseball. JUST GIVE THEM THEIR ROLES AND KEEP THEM THERE................GEEZ, this aint rocket science.

[LDF]

if he had some pitchers there who could do the job.

 

who is #5, how bout a reliever, a set up man, a long reliever?

 

there is some problems and jm is trying to find the right combo.

Every team has the problems. Thats just a pathetic excuse Jerry probably likes to use. He has talent out there. In fact, going into 2003, the sox were known to have one of the best pens in baseball. JUST GIVE THEM THEIR ROLES AND KEEP THEM THERE................GEEZ, this aint rocket science.

it doesn't wash, bmr. but what ever.

[Bmr31]

if he had some pitchers there who could do the job.

 

who is #5, how bout a reliever, a set up man, a long reliever?

 

there is some problems and jm is trying to find the right combo.

Every team has the problems. Thats just a pathetic excuse Jerry probably likes to use. He has talent out there. In fact, going into 2003, the sox were known to have one of the best pens in baseball. JUST GIVE THEM THEIR ROLES AND KEEP THEM THERE................GEEZ, this aint rocket science.

it doesn't wash, bmr. but what ever.

It washes for every good manager with talent. WE just happen to have an average manager with talent.

[whitesox247]

When the bullpen is clicking, the manager is a genius (because every move works anyway)

Jim Tracy is a genius.

[witesoxfan]

I do tend to agree with BMR here. Don't say "I'll try you in this role and see if you work." Just say "You will do this, you will do this, and you will do this." Don't ever let Gordon mop-up like he did in that 13-9 loss against KC, and don't ever let White into a close game(though I'm not sure if he is even with the team anymore). That way they can go into the game with the right intensity.

[witesoxfan]

Jim Tracy is a genius.

I would actually agree with that.

 

I would love to have Jim Tracy as manager.

[Bmr31]

I do tend to agree with BMR here.  Don't say "I'll try you in this role and see if you work."  Just say "You will do this, you will do this, and you will do this."  Don't ever let Gordon mop-up like he did in that 13-9 loss against KC, and don't ever let White into a close game(though I'm not sure if he is even with the team anymore).  That way they can go into the game with the right intensity.

i dont claim to be an expert at managing baseball teams. However, i have managed people for years, with outstanding results. Those people need to be believed in, encouraged and given a role. Without a specific role, they tend to wander aimlessly. Baseball players are not exempt to that.

[LDF]

if he had some pitchers there who could do the job.

 

who is #5, how bout a reliever, a set up man, a long reliever?

 

there is some problems and jm is trying to find the right combo.

Every team has the problems. Thats just a pathetic excuse Jerry probably likes to use. He has talent out there. In fact, going into 2003, the sox were known to have one of the best pens in baseball. JUST GIVE THEM THEIR ROLES AND KEEP THEM THERE................GEEZ, this aint rocket science.

it doesn't wash, bmr. but what ever.

It washes for every good manager with talent. WE just happen to have an average manager with talent.

botch, white, and who is or can be the everyday #5 starter?

 

 

cmon think before you talk.

[Bmr31]

if he had some pitchers there who could do the job.

 

who is #5, how bout a reliever, a set up man, a long reliever?

 

there is some problems and jm is trying to find the right combo.

Every team has the problems. Thats just a pathetic excuse Jerry probably likes to use. He has talent out there. In fact, going into 2003, the sox were known to have one of the best pens in baseball. JUST GIVE THEM THEIR ROLES AND KEEP THEM THERE................GEEZ, this aint rocket science.

it doesn't wash, bmr. but what ever.

It washes for every good manager with talent. WE just happen to have an average manager with talent.

botch, white, and who is or can be the everyday #5 starter?

 

 

cmon think before you talk.

Let me spell this out for you. When players, or anyone for that matter, are used properly, they perform better. Rick White and Billy Koch have a history of being successful.

[LDF]

if he had some pitchers there who could do the job.

 

who is #5, how bout a reliever, a set up man, a long reliever?

 

there is some problems and jm is trying to find the right combo.

Every team has the problems. Thats just a pathetic excuse Jerry probably likes to use. He has talent out there. In fact, going into 2003, the sox were known to have one of the best pens in baseball. JUST GIVE THEM THEIR ROLES AND KEEP THEM THERE................GEEZ, this aint rocket science.

it doesn't wash, bmr. but what ever.

It washes for every good manager with talent. WE just happen to have an average manager with talent.

botch, white, and who is or can be the everyday #5 starter?

 

 

cmon think before you talk.

Let me spell this out for you. When players, or anyone for that matter, are used properly, they perform better. Rick White and Billy Koch have a history of being successful.

and are you saying this season the reason for botch lack of success is all jm fault for not using him right?

 

if i remember last week, you were saying he, botch sucks. make up your mind.

 

 

white was given opportunity to pitch and when he did, he sucked it up. oh you are right, jm was really out

there pitching right?

 

white mention that jm used gordon and marte too often........... that was his b****.

 

can you see the writting now............... or how bout that 5 starters............ how is that jm fault.

[Bmr31]

if he had some pitchers there who could do the job.

 

who is #5, how bout a reliever, a set up man, a long reliever?

 

there is some problems and jm is trying to find the right combo.

Every team has the problems. Thats just a pathetic excuse Jerry probably likes to use. He has talent out there. In fact, going into 2003, the sox were known to have one of the best pens in baseball. JUST GIVE THEM THEIR ROLES AND KEEP THEM THERE................GEEZ, this aint rocket science.

it doesn't wash, bmr. but what ever.

It washes for every good manager with talent. WE just happen to have an average manager with talent.

botch, white, and who is or can be the everyday #5 starter?

 

 

cmon think before you talk.

Let me spell this out for you. When players, or anyone for that matter, are used properly, they perform better. Rick White and Billy Koch have a history of being successful.

and are you saying this season the reason for botch lack of success is all jm fault for not using him right?

 

if i remember last week, you were saying he, botch sucks. make up your mind.

 

 

white was given opportunity to pitch and when he did, he sucked it up. oh you are right, jm was really out

there pitching right?

 

white mention that jm used gordon and marte too often........... that was his b****.

 

can you see the writting now............... or how bout that 5 starters............ how is that jm fault.

Yeah i think a great deal of BK's struggle has been due to improper use, and not being believed in..................I could go in there tomorrow, make Billy my closer and within 2-3 weeks he would become successful. I can almost guarantee that. Im NOT saying i can manage a baseball team, but i do know what it takes to help others believe in themselves.

[LDF]

you are sooo full of s***..............

 

how many teams are lining up to get you to manage.

 

going into the season kotch was the closer, he was given opportunities to close the game and blew it.

 

there was no misuse in that.

 

why not answer the other points i am making?????????

 

 

i know this is one of your days that you want to get under people nerves......... b/c you obviously

do not know what you are talking about.

[Bmr31]

you are sooo full of s***..............

 

how many teams are lining up to get you to manage.

 

going into the season kotch was the closer, he was given opportunities to close the game and blew it.

 

there was no misuse in that.

 

why not answer the other points i am making?????????

 

 

i know this is one of your days that you want to get under people nerves......... b/c you obviously

do not know what you are talking about.

Teams? My field isnt baseball, its retail......and there are dozens, thank you. Managing is managing, and if you ever got a real job, youd know that.......

[LDF]

deleted by me, i went for the neck on this one.

[Bmr31]

ahhh but i never got fired for sexual harrassment...........

 

but i have had jobs and a lot more of a high profile than you can ever imagine.

 

in addition, i was a first line sup for 14 yrs.............. yup you sure know how to

manage.

I didnt get fired, and i didnt sexually harass anyone. However, if that makes you feel better about your sorry ass, so be it.

 

On your other points, yup, i sure do know how to manage, i make a lot of money doing it, and i will always make money doing it.

[LDF]

so how did this is jm fault on the bussiness of managing pitchers when the players who was there didn't do the job. jm had to deal with and find ways to get the job done.

[Bmr31]

so how did this is jm fault on the bussiness of managing pitchers when the players who was there didn't do the job. jm had to deal with and find ways to get the job done.

good managers get the best out of their people. Jm doesnt and thats very obvious......