Zach Stewart called up

[Cali]

Hey, I might actually watch some of the game today! Even if Stewart blows, it's still fun to see someone who hasn't been part of the bore-fest all season get a chance to do SOMETHING...

[max power]

Huh? Not at this board. Elrockin and GH are the exceptions. Most wanted the Sox to sell before the deadline.

Irrelevant.

[iamshack]

Doesn't matter what fathom thinks. Point is KW didn't think it was over. Otherwise CQ, Thornton and others more than likely wouldn't be here. It doesn't require a really high I.Q. to realize that relying on Peavy/Humber for the long haul is probably a bad idea. I don't know what happened to KW. I thought he was a top 5 GM in baseball a few years ago. But man is he awful now.

You've got to look at the bigger picture a bit more.

 

Tell me how you're going to rebuild RIGHT NOW with the salaries we're committed to over the next 2-3 years. We'd still be on the hook for $80 million in salary for about 6-7 players. To me, it makes more sense to keep around guys like Thornton and hope our players actually perform next year than to shave $5-6 million and still have a swollen payroll.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Irrelevant.

 

Then don't pull the Monday morning QB card.

[max power]

Then don't pull the Monday morning QB card.

 

The point is, if you looked without a negative bias at the then present situation, and looked at where we are now, you will have made the moves kenny did. To prognosticate into the future a six game losing streak when the team was playing well, is as ill informed a move as monday morning quarterbacking, and both can be criticized.

 

Unless of course, you can tell me why you would predict this losing streak, considering the teams recent performance and performance against teams above .500. I'm guessing they mostly wanted to sell based on fear. That's not a valid reason to make a move, even if they happened to be right.

Edited August 6, 2011 by MAX

[Jordan4life_2007]

You've got to look at the bigger picture a bit more.

 

Tell me how you're going to rebuild RIGHT NOW with the salaries we're committed to over the next 2-3 years. We'd still be on the hook for $80 million in salary for about 6-7 players. To me, it makes more sense to keep around guys like Thornton and hope our players actually perform next year than to shave $5-6 million and still have a swollen payroll.

 

You are not going to fix this mess KW has gotten us in overnight. I was not trying to imply that. What irks me is that because the division is so bad and that we still 'technically' had a good chance of getting back in it blinded some and, more importantly KW, into thinking this team had a shot. I love baseball. One of the main reasons is because baseball 9 times out of 10 tells you the truth. If you're at or below .500 100+ games into the season, chances are you're not very good. They should've gone full-blown sell mode. I didn't need to see the massacre that was Boston/NY to know this team is not good. I already knew that. Now our top trade chips are either a year away from FA or overpaid.

[Jordan4life_2007]

The point is, if you looked without a negative bias at the then present situation, and looked at where we are now, you will have made the moves kenny did. To prognosticate into the future a six game losing streak when the team was playing well, is as ill informed a move as monday morning quarterbacking, and both can be criticized.

 

How often do you post here? Or are you mainly a lurker? A sizable chunk wanted KW to sell before Red Sox series.

[caulfield12]

You've got to look at the bigger picture a bit more.

 

Tell me how you're going to rebuild RIGHT NOW with the salaries we're committed to over the next 2-3 years. We'd still be on the hook for $80 million in salary for about 6-7 players. To me, it makes more sense to keep around guys like Thornton and hope our players actually perform next year than to shave $5-6 million and still have a swollen payroll.

 

 

There's no way you can afford to have a bullpen of Thornton, Crain, Frasor AND Ohman. The numbers aren't going to add up revenue-wise.

 

They SEEM to be once again stuck in a position where they have to keep trying to compete, but holding on to Danks and resigning Buehrle...all these things are impossible to do simultaneously. We want to keep Quentin, but then AJ's salary is rising by $4 million. Trading Teahen helped A BIT, but not enough to override the massive tide turning against the Sox payroll situation unless they do something very radical.

 

They just can't keep Floyd, Danks and Buehrle together for one more year unless JR authorizes it. It all depends on Buehrle. He's the only player (along with Konerko) that JR would seemingly have an issue with losing from the active roster.

[max power]

How often do you post here? Or are you mainly a lurker? A sizable chunk wanted KW to sell before Red Sox series.

I know. I just told you -it was the wrong move then. You don't seem to understand that. There were no overwhelming reasons to assume we couldn't win the division. For every argument that we could not, there was one showing that we could.

 

I have over 2,000 posts?

[caulfield12]

You are not going to fix this mess KW has gotten us in overnight. I was not trying to imply that. What irks me is that because the division is so bad and that we still 'technically' had a good chance of getting back in it blinded some and, more importantly KW, into thinking this team had a shot. I love baseball. One of the main reasons is because baseball 9 times out of 10 tells you the truth. If you're at or below .500 100+ games into the season, chances are you're not very good. They should've gone full-blown sell mode. I didn't need to see the massacre that was Boston/NY to know this team is not good. I already knew that. Now our top trade chips are either a year away from FA or overpaid.

 

 

Unless you trade Alexei Ramirez, that's the only card you have left to play.

 

But doing that almost certainly means you have to go full rebuild again because trading Ramirez forces another Beckham position change (unless you get a SS back in return) and then you're dealing with Morel and Lillbridge/Kuhn at 2B (once again, unless you get another IF back).

 

So trading Ramirez doesn't give much salary relief at all for 2012 but cripples the infield.

 

Other than that, who could you possibly trade with value? You're left with only Santos, Sale and Viciedo.

 

 

But it will be interesting to see if Crain, Frasor, Ohman, Konerko, Thornton, Buehrle, Floyd, AJ and Pierre all survive the waiver wire process and are still here at the end of August.

Edited August 6, 2011 by caulfield12

[max power]

This is what I am saying -

 

On monday I predict that it will rain six inches because I have the day off and it almost always rains on my day off.

 

Tuesday, it then rains, six inches exactly.

 

Was that prediction right? Was it made with sound reasoning? Should I be commended? Apply for a job as a weather man?

 

Personally, I don't think so.

Edited August 6, 2011 by MAX

[Balta1701]

The pen was shorthanded with Bruney out there anyway.

Bah, if the 3 games that we needed to have the starter pulled in the 5th/6th where Ozzie didn't pull him...had instead had Bruney coming in, we'd have probably won 2 of them.

[caulfield12]

I know. I just told you -it was the wrong move then. You don't seem to understand that. There were no overwhelming reasons to assume we couldn't win the division. For every argument that we could not, there was one showing that we could.

 

I have over 2,000 posts?

 

 

1) Detroit has beaten us head-to-head pretty consistently the last 2 seasons.

2) Dunn/Rios/Beckham have shown no signs of being All-Star caliber players

3) Humber/Peavy wearing down and struggling in middle innings

4) Acquisitions by the Indians (Jimenez/Fukudome) and Tigers (Fister/Pauley/Betemit) made winning the division all that much more difficult

5) Health concerns about Viciedo getting back to form

6) Verlander wins nearly every game out, we don't have a true ace

7) Porcello and Scherzer have pitched very well since Knapp was fired

8) Detroit got healthy Carlos Guillen and Austin Jackson back...even Ordonez has been hitting better

9) Spectre of facing the Yankees and then the Twins/Orioles on the road

Edited August 6, 2011 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Bah, if the 3 games that we needed to have the starter pulled in the 5th/6th where Ozzie didn't pull him...had instead had Bruney coming in, we'd have probably won 2 of them.

 

 

If you inserted Frasor's name for Bruney, then yes, there would be clear agreement on that one.

[Balta1701]

Hey, I might actually watch some of the game today! Even if Stewart blows, it's still fun to see someone who hasn't been part of the bore-fest all season get a chance to do SOMETHING...

I must applaud your sig.

[Balta1701]

If you inserted Frasor's name for Bruney, then yes, there would be clear agreement on that one.

If we were inserting a decent arm we'd probably have won all 3. The reason i still gave a loss is that I was figuring being a bad pitcher would cost 1 of them.

[iamshack]

You are not going to fix this mess KW has gotten us in overnight. I was not trying to imply that. What irks me is that because the division is so bad and that we still 'technically' had a good chance of getting back in it blinded some and, more importantly KW, into thinking this team had a shot. I love baseball. One of the main reasons is because baseball 9 times out of 10 tells you the truth. If you're at or below .500 100+ games into the season, chances are you're not very good. They should've gone full-blown sell mode. I didn't need to see the massacre that was Boston/NY to know this team is not good. I already knew that. Now our top trade chips are either a year away from FA or overpaid.

I guess it's just a difference in philosophy.

 

I would rather try and still win since we are going to be paying all this money and the division is weak, but that's just me...

[max power]

1) Detroit has beaten us head-to-head pretty consistently the last 2 seasons.

2) Dunn/Rios/Beckham have shown no signs of being All-Star caliber players

3) Humber/Peavy wearing down and struggling in middle innings

4) Acquisitions by the Indians (Jimenez/Fukudome) and Tigers (Fister/Pauley/Betemit) made winning the division all that much more difficult

5) Health concerns about Viciedo getting back to form

6) Verlander wins nearly every game out, we don't have a true ace

7) Porcello and Scherzer have pitched very well since Knapp was fired

8) Detroit got healthy Carlos Guillen and Austin Jackson back...even Ordonez has been hitting better

9) Spectre of facing the Yankees and then the Twins/Orioles on the road

I'm not going to address all of the fallacies here. There are also some good points. I simply don't want to spend my time doing it right now. I'm going out. Anyway, it wouldn't take the sharpest mind in the world to come up with a counter argument for each of these, and bring up positive points that you had not mentioned. Hell, you could probably even do it despite biases. More important to my point is what I said in #36. Its a philosophical position I've taken, and there are no right answers. That is just my opinion. Have a lovely day.

Edited August 6, 2011 by MAX

[southsider2k5]

Doesn't matter what fathom thinks. Point is KW didn't think it was over. Otherwise CQ, Thornton and others more than likely wouldn't be here. It doesn't require a really high I.Q. to realize that relying on Peavy/Humber for the long haul is probably a bad idea. I don't know what happened to KW. I thought he was a top 5 GM in baseball a few years ago. But man is he awful now.

 

I honestly think Kenny knew it was over. Too many idiots starting bringing up White Flag, which put the kibosh on any other deals.

[southsider2k5]

Bah, if the 3 games that we needed to have the starter pulled in the 5th/6th where Ozzie didn't pull him...had instead had Bruney coming in, we'd have probably won 2 of them.

 

The guy couldn't even be the mop up reliever without giving assloads of runs. He literally served no purpose on this team

[Cali]

I must applaud your sig.

 

I f'n love that movie haha.

 

[Flash Tizzle]

I'm not going to address all of the fallacies here. I simply don't want to spend my time doing it right now. I'm going out. Anyway, it wouldn't take the sharpest mind in the world to come up with a counter argument for each of these, and bring up positive points that you had not mentioned. Hell, you could probably even do it. More important to my point is what I said in #36. Its a philosophical position I've taken, and there are no right answers. That is just my opinion. Have a lovely day.

You shouldn't be allowed to post again until you address every one of Caufield's points. When you call out people to present counter arguments to your position, and someone does exactly, it's just cowardly of you to call them "fallacies" as you slowly back away from the computer.

 

Also, deciding whether or not to sell is not something of a philosophical question. Quit making it out to be more than it is. Either you believe the team is in it or not -- there's definitely a right and wrong answer, as we've seen this last week.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Flash Tizzle

[max power]

You shouldn't be allowed to post again until you address every one of Caufield's points. When you call out people to present counter arguments to your position, and someone does exactly, it's just cowardly of you to call them "fallacies" as you slowly back away from the computer.

 

Also, deciding whether or not to sell is not something of a philosophical question. Quit making it out to be more than it is. Either you believe the team is in it or not -- there's definitely a right and wrong answer, as we've seen this last week.

If you read the re-edit. I said he also made some good points.

 

I didn't say that was a philosophical question.

[max power]

The philosophical question is - Is an ill informed decision with poor risk/reward consequences a good decision in hindsight when it turns out to be right. I say no.

 

My other argument is that this selling would have been the wrong move at the time given the information we had at that time.

 

These things are both disputable. We aren't going to come to an agreement.

[caulfield12]

LOL.

 

I don't even care about points being addressed or not.

 

However, unlike last year's 26-5 stretch, there has been ZERO reason to believe in this team. We can never, ever put together a 7-8-9 winning streak with our current offense unless our pitchers (two of who are under duress every start in Peavy and Humber) throw shutouts every single game.

 

They "eye test" of watching enough games should tell any informed baseball fan that.

 

Sure, you could go to fangraphs and they'd say there was a 10-15% chance of the White Sox making the playoffs...but those same computers haven't watched the White Sox either this season.

 

The Tigers have a better offense, arguably a rotation that's at least equal to ours and their bullpen is much improved with Pauley and some their injured guys like Albuquerque returning to form. I could add that Valverde hasn't blown a save all season...but that's just as good a reason to argue he can't possibly keep that up and the White Sox have hope. But when that hope is based on other teams failing around you, then too many things have to go right. It's like the 10th or 11th seed winning the Big 10 tournament. There are too many obstacles in the way now.

Edited August 6, 2011 by caulfield12