Sox Trade Busts vs. Other Team

[stretchstretch]

Given that most of us are focused on our own club, I'm wondering once the emotion is taken out, how we objectively stack up to other teams in terms of busted trades.

 

I can so easily be infuriated by Swisher and Dunn, specifically for inexplicable career worsts under the Sox (of course OG and Walker may very well be the explanation but that's another thread). Then of course there are the fixer upper and aging veteran trades like Q, Rios, Pierre, and to an extent an injury prone Peavy. Of course credit must be given for successes, mostly pitchers, as I try to think of position player trades that were really great and can't think of ONE.

 

So for those with enough knowledge of MLB trades, can anyone cite another club with a comparable imbalance of bad-to-good w some examples? Again, the cause is a whole different debate, I'm just wondering if there are other fan bases with so much angst over big money wasted. (aside from the Cubs because that's too easy).

Edited August 6, 2011 by stretchstretch

[knightni]

Milton Bradley from LAD to OAK for some scrub named Andre Ethier.

 

 

[JoshPR]

Indians traded Brandon Phillips for a Player to be named

[Balta1701]

Phillies traded Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd for a broken down Freddie Garcia.

[stretchstretch]

the question is are we alone the quantity of trades gone bad over a stretch of at least a couple years? not just one isolated trade by a given team. It seems objectively that the Sox lead in low productivity per trade dollar the past couple seasons.. Cubs and Mets come to mind as close, but can't think of another team spending 110M+ with such a long list of names that fall in the "bust" category

[Kyyle23]

Dunn was not acquired via trade, so he does not qualify

[caulfield12]

This doesn't really fit, because the Peavy deal was all about salary relief and the White Sox didn't give up anyone (other than Richard, who would have been the last guy out of the bullpen) who was arguably even going to be on their roster in the future.

 

Rios was a waiver claim, and Dunn a FA signing.

 

You have to go to Edwin Jackson for Hudson/Holmberg...which is now essentially Hudson/Holmberg for Stewart and Frasor...the two Swisher trades....and the bad "salary dump" trade we made to get rid of Javy to the Braves with Tyler Flowers as the centerpiece. Finally, dumping Fields/Getz/Brian Anderson/Pods and only ending up with Mark Teahen in return from KC, then the extension (I know the trade wasn't those 4).

 

Those five trades are the center of 90% of the angst at all the sox boards.

 

KW would argue that ridding the organization of Vazquez was a classic "addition by subtraction" but however he spent the money (saved), it clearly wasn't good.

 

The Twins haven't traded well (Garza/Bartlett for Delmon Young, Ramos for Matt Capps, dumping their entire middle infield and bullpen and signing Nishioka, Hardy for Hoey, etc.), the Astros are a mess (stuck with Carlos Lee and Wandy Rodriguez for now), the Mariners have made a ton of bad moves (Erik Bedard trade was epic bad), the Padres, Cubs, Mets, Orioles, Dodgers, etc.

 

KW went from a consensus Top 10 GM (2002-2008) to a pretty close to consensus Bottom 5-10 GM from 2008 offseason through today.

Edited August 7, 2011 by caulfield12

[Quin]

Marlins traded some kid named Adrian Gonzalez for Ugueth Urbina (I know, they won the championship).

 

Then he was thrown in with Chris Young and Terrmel Sledge for Adam Eaton and Akinori Otsuka.

 

That far outweighs Hudson or Gio.

[Quin]

You have to go to Edwin Jackson for Hudson/Holmberg...which is now essentially Hudson/Holmberg for Stewart and Frasor...the two Swisher trades....and the bad "salary dump" trade we made to get rid of Javy to the Braves with Tyler Flowers as the centerpiece. Finally, dumping Fields/Getz/Brian Anderson/Pods and only ending up with Mark Teahen in return from KC, then the extension (I know the trade wasn't those 4).

 

Those five trades are the center of 90% of the angst at all the sox boards.

 

KW went from a consensus Top 10 GM (2002-2008) to a pretty close to consensus Bottom 5-10 GM from 2008 offseason through today.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. Everyone loved getting Flowers for Javy, the Teahen TRADE was met with "ok", extension another matter. Initial Swisher trade I wasn't on this board for, so I can't say, but it looked good at the time.

 

As for the bolded, name me 20-25 GM's better.

 

I can name a lot worse.

 

Jim Hendry - Self explanatory.

Ed Wade - Think the Sox have fallen far since '05?

Mark Shapiro - I don't care about this year, especially since they just payed a kings ransom for Ubaldo. Plus, he blew the CC and Lee trades.

Dayton Moore - I'm waiting for the fabled Royals dynasty

Jack Zduriencik - Makes our lineup look like the Red Sox lineup.

Ned Colletti - Santana for Blake, Manny extension, Pierre contract, Jones contract, etc.

John Mozeliak - Lucked into Berkman being productive, terrible IF after Pujols, got fleeced for Rasmus.

Jed Hoyer - He was the Red Sox puppet and that was it.

Mike Rizzo - If not for lucking into Strasburg - Harper - Rendon, Nats fans would kill themselves.

Andy MacPhail - The O's just aren't good. Won't be good.

Billy Beane - "Moneyball". I can't believe there is a movie.

 

There's my bottom 11. Here's the guys who are definitively better than KW.

 

Ruben Amaro, Jr.

Alex Anthopoulos (Best GM).

Jon Daniels

Theo Epstein

Andrew Friedman

Doug Melvin

Daniel O'Dowd

Frank Wren

 

That's eight guys. So, 19 total. The remaining 11 I just clump together.

 

Bill Smith - Yes, Twins are good. But go nowhere in playoffs, Garza deal, Mauer contract will be BAD, Capps trade.

Brian Cashman - No more fitting name has ever been bestowed upon a GM.

Brian Sabean - Yes, WS championship this past year. But also, Zito and AJ deals. Rowand deal.

Kevin Towers - He would be in the above category if this wasn't his first year in AZ.

Tony Reagins - His expensive OF fetish baffles me.

Walt Jocketty - Good last year, but Chapman is gonna look bad. Also Josh Hamilton.

Michael Hill - You really can't do much when you're the Marlins GM.

Sandy Alderson - Can't judge right now.

Neal Huntington - He can't be in the above list until the Pirates have a few good seasons, but they finally look like a real team.

Kenny Williams

 

1 I'm forgetting. I really can't figure out who.

[caulfield12]

Shapiro's no longer the GM in Cleveland, he got bumped up.

 

Flowers, it seems in hindsight, was largely a product of PED's in terms of his Braves' minor league numbers and AFL stats. Needed to do a bit more due diligence on that one, but obviously hundreds of players have gotten caught up in that.

 

I would take Cashman, Sabean, Reagins, Jocketty and Alderson (based on past performance) over KW as well.

 

Maybe he's a BIT higher, maybe 18-20, but you'd have a lot of argument/s around baseball.

 

I suppose the question would be...were KW on the open market, how many of those teams would bring KW in and let go of their current guy?

 

Alex A. needs to prove that the Blue Jays can come close to contending again in that division before you can annoint him as the best. Daniels would obviously be the "hip" pick as the best GM for his performance the last 2-3 years, but he and KW started out similarly on the learning curve.

Edited August 7, 2011 by caulfield12

[Quin]

Shapiro's no longer the GM in Cleveland, he got bumped up.

 

Flowers, it seems in hindsight, was largely a product of PED's in terms of his Braves' minor league numbers and AFL stats. Needed to do a bit more due diligence on that one, but obviously hundreds of players have gotten caught up in that.

 

I would take Cashman, Sabean, Reagins, Jocketty and Alderson (based on past performance) over KW as well.

 

Maybe he's a BIT higher, maybe 18-20, but you'd have a lot of argument/s around baseball.

 

I suppose the question would be...were KW on the open market, how many of those teams would bring KW in and let go of their current guy?

 

Alex A. needs to prove that the Blue Jays can come close to contending again in that division before you can annoint him as the best. Daniels would obviously be the "hip" pick as the best GM for his performance the last 2-3 years, but he and KW started out similarly on the learning curve.

 

Whoever took Shapiro's spot then gets it. Antonetti I think?

 

I wouldn't take Cashman over KW. His entire GM-ship is $$$. Sabean's AJ, Zito, and Rowand deals were awful. He was real lucky last year with waivers. Before last year, he's probably a Bottom 5 GM. Reagins dishes out more money to OF than KW. Jocketty is OK. Last year was real good, but the Reds kind of remind me of the Sox this year.

 

I'll give you Alderson.

 

And as for Alex A., he became #1 the day he got Mike Napoli and Juan Rivera for Vernon Wells. Who has more money than Rios and has been awful this year (not THAT far off from Rios).

[Dick Allen]

Every team makes bad trades and signs players that blow. The White Sox problems are amplified because they are a team that always talks about a budget, and their busts are some very highly paid players.

[caulfield12]

Sabean still just won the World Series last year, so hard to argue with that result.

 

Cashman's the Phil Jackson syndrome. Could he ever win with a small-market franchise or do a total rebuild?

 

We'll probably never know. It would be interesting to find out. I'm sure that both he and Epstein have moments that they hear the whispers they could never have success in Pittsburgh, KC, Florida, Seattle, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincy, Houston, etc.

 

And Angels have still developed/drafted a lot more players than the White Sox over the past decade. Trout alone gives him the edge over KW, not to mention Weaver/Santana, the Saunders for Haren deal, Kendrick, Bourjos, Morales, etc. Sure, a lot of busts, too. But Reagins has the overall advantage. Plus that franchise has a LOT more playoff appearances in the last 10-12 years.

 

 

[Heads22]

Let's hold off on calling AA the best GM in baseball til Toronto does something.

[Quin]

Sabean still just won the World Series last year, so hard to argue with that result.

 

Cashman's the Phil Jackson syndrome. Could he ever win with a small-market franchise or do a total rebuild?

 

We'll probably never know. It would be interesting to find out. I'm sure that both he and Epstein have moments that they hear the whispers they could never have success in Pittsburgh, KC, Florida, Seattle, Baltimore, Cleveland, Cincy, Houston, etc.

 

And Angels have still developed/drafted a lot more players than the White Sox over the past decade. Trout alone gives him the edge over KW, not to mention Weaver/Santana, the Saunders for Haren deal, Kendrick, Bourjos, Morales, etc. Sure, a lot of busts, too. But Reagins has the overall advantage. Plus that franchise has a LOT more playoff appearances in the last 10-12 years.

 

And KW won in 2005. Over there careers, I'd say Kenny wins (him and Sabean). Especially because Zito is worse than Dunn, Rowand is worse than Rios (deal wise and over the course of the deals), and the AJ trade is WAY worse than the Swisher deal.

 

Cashman wouldn't succeed with a small market. Or even a Chicago market.

 

The Rafael Soriano deal? Can you imagine how pissed this forum would be with that? A-Rod? Jeter? Burnett? Martin? Colon and Freddy at 4 & 5, Boone Logan as the sole lefty?

 

This board would be FURIOUS with any of those, except MAYBE A-Rod.

 

I could see Theo working somewhere else, because he builds a really strong system.

 

If we're giving Sabean a pass for the World Series, than Reagins isn't beating KW for not having one, despite having many good teams. But Hunter, Wells, Matthews, would earn Reagins a sig with a red X across his face here.

 

My point is, even though those guys have all been successful, they have big faults. That's why I put them on even footing.

[caulfield12]

The Hunter deal wasn't a bad contract until this year, especially for a CFer. If you think about it, if we had Hunter for that whole time, we never would have had to pick up Rios.

 

Hunter gave them 3 solid years at least. Granted, next year for Torii doesn't look like a good deal at all. Rios has given us one out of 2 1/2 seasons with the Sox, and we still owe him for at least 3 more.

 

That's the nature of long-term deals for players in their 30's, it almost always comes back to bite you in the end. (Yet another reason why Pujols will get less dollars and years than Prince Fielder but it will still be "one year too many").

 

Just imagine if we'd been stuck with the Fukudome or Rowand contracts. The only plus is they all would have prevented the Rios deal from being triggered.

 

And who's to say the Dunn deal won't end up being worse than Vernon Wells at THIS POINT?

 

Not to mention that "winning" players like Uribe were unceremoniously shown the door.

 

 

 

 

[Quin]

The Hunter deal wasn't a bad contract until this year, especially for a CFer. If you think about it, if we had Hunter for that whole time, we never would have had to pick up Rios.

 

Hunter gave them 3 solid years at least. Granted, next year for Torii doesn't look like a good deal at all. Rios has given us one out of 2 1/2 seasons with the Sox, and we still owe him for at least 3 more.

 

That's the nature of long-term deals for players in their 30's, it almost always comes back to bite you in the end. (Yet another reason why Pujols will get less dollars and years than Prince Fielder but it will still be "one year too many").

 

Just imagine if we'd been stuck with the Fukudome or Rowand contracts. The only plus is they all would have prevented the Rios deal from being triggered.

 

And who's to say the Dunn deal won't end up being worse than Vernon Wells at THIS POINT?

 

Not to mention that "winning" players like Uribe were unceremoniously shown the door.

 

I have to say, even though we're disagreeing, I'm enjoying this debate.

 

Though as far as Uribe goes he wasn't cutting it much more and Alexei was the replacement, so I'd say that was pretty good for us.

 

And I can't think of an '05 who was shown the door when their time was up.

[SI1020]

Was Dave Dombrowski on that list?

[caulfield12]

With Juan Uribe, he was the glue/rock/center of that clubhouse.

 

He also was the bridge between the white, black and Hispanic players...equally popular with everyone in the clubhouse.

 

That player no longer exists, the one to make everyone laugh and who just loves playing the game, almost in the same way Ozzie did.

 

And Uribe was going to be overpaid as merely a bench player...that's true enough. And hindsight helps too, looking at what he did for the Giants, especially winning the World Series last season.

 

The one thing that stands out is that Buehrle was willing to give up at least $1 million of his salary (or defer it) to keep Juan on the Sox. Is there anybody that Mark would come close to saying that about now, with the way things have been the last 2-3 seasons? I think not. Not even for John Danks.

 

Uribe always did the little things like hitting sacrifice flies and coming up with big clutch hits. He wasn't afraid to make a game-changing play defensively, either.

 

I guess he was my favorite player on that Sox WS team, thinking about it now. Either Uribe or Contreras.

[rowand's rowdies]

KW has made a few major mistakes in the last few seasons that have made us question him as our GM. IF you look at the other moves he has made, he's done pretty well. But the mistakes he has made have been big ones. Ones that combined could definitely be fireable offenses.

 

1) Swisher for Gio and Sweeney+

2) Peavy for Richard

3) Claiming Rios off Waivers

4) Teahen for Getz

5) Jackson for Hudson+

6) Signing Dunn

 

Luckily KW has rid himself of mistakes 4 and 5 salary wise. But if you look at Peavy, Rios, and Dunn you've got over $40 million in salary that could have been replaced with the young cheap players traded for swisher and jackson and with a different free agent instead of dunn. We would have had an extra $27 million in the offseason without Peavy and Rios. Who knows what would have happened, but here's a could have been 2011 White Sox Roster.

 

c - AJP/Flowers/Castro

1b - Konerko/Berkman

2b - Beckham/Getz

3b - Beltre/Morel

SS - Alexi/Vizquel

OF - Quentin/Sweeney/Berkman/Pierre/De Aza

DH - Viciendo/Berkman

SP - Buehrle

SP - Danks

SP - Floyd

SP - Hudson

SP - Gio

SP - Humber

RP - Frasor

RP - Santos

RP - Thornton

RP - Sale

RP - Ohman

RP - Crain

 

I added Beltre and Berkman as free agents, who could have both been had. That team is about $25 cheaper than the current one and a lot better. 6 major mistakes and we've got our current team...

Edited August 7, 2011 by rowand's rowdies

[Quin]

KW has made a few major mistakes in the last few seasons that have made us question him as our GM. IF you look at the other moves he has made, he's done pretty well. But the mistakes he has made have been big ones. Ones that combined could definitely be fireable offenses.

 

1) Swisher for Gio and Sweeney+

2) Peavy for Richard

3) Claiming Rios off Waivers

4) Teahen for Getz

5) Jackson for Hudson+

6) Signing Dunn

 

Luckily KW has rid himself of mistakes 4 and 5 salary wise. But if you look at Peavy, Rios, and Dunn you've got over $40 million in salary that could have been replaced with the young cheap players traded for swisher and jackson and with a different free agent instead of dunn. We would have had an extra $27 million in the offseason without Peavy and Rios. Who knows what would have happened, but here's a could have been 2011 White Sox Roster.

 

c - AJP/Flowers/Castro

1b - Konerko/Berkman

2b - Beckham/Getz

3b - Beltre/Morel

SS - Alexi/Vizquel

OF - Quentin/Sweeney/Berkman/Pierre/De Aza

DH - Viciendo/Berkman

SP - Buehrle

SP - Danks

SP - Floyd

SP - Hudson

SP - Gio

SP - Humber

RP - Frasor

RP - Santos

RP - Thornton

RP - Sale

RP - Ohman

RP - Crain

 

I added Beltre and Berkman as free agents, who could have both been had. That team is about $25 cheaper than the current one and a lot better. 6 major mistakes and we've got our current team...

 

 

We don't have Frasor if we have Hudson.

 

We have an OF of Q-Pierre-Sweeney.

 

No Morel or Beltre if we have Getz, Gordon would have been at 3rd. Isn't here either.

 

Berkman would not have come here. He didn't want to come here.

 

Humber isn't here if we have Gio and Hudson. If he is, he's a relief, but we got him as Peavy insurance, so we wouldn't have gotten him.

 

Richard for Peavy gets done every single time at the time.

 

We wouldn't be All In so Sale isn't a RP.

 

So really, the team is

 

SP - Buehrle, Floyd, Danks, Hudson, Gio. This is the obvious best part of the team. That's just sick.

RP - Santos, Crain, Thornton, Ohman, Pena, Lindsay, Infante. That pen is OK. Not like the current one.

C - AJ/Castro

1B - Konerko/Fields

2B - Getz/Lillibridge

SS - Alexei/Lillibridge

3B - Beckham/Lillibridge

LF - Viciedo/De Aza

CF - Pierre/De Aza

RF - Sweeney/De Aza

DH - Quentin/Fields

 

That is one of the few lineups I could think of that would be worse than our current one.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Quinarvy

[caulfield12]

Or take back the Javy deal and stick Chris B. Young in CF.

 

That would be a pretty potent line-up.

 

Quinarv, where is Chris Sale in your line-up/roster rendition? Starting in Charlotte or Birmingham? Rotation depth?

 

2B is another obvious weakness with Getz. Keeping Uribe would have solved that infield issue (yeah, I know it wasn't realistic to pay him as a starter heading in 2009). But it was a big mistake not to keep him on the roster SOMEHOW.

 

You really can't play Juan Pierre in CF, either. It would have to be Viciedo in RF, Sweeney in CF and Pierre in LF. Not with Juan's arm.

Edited August 7, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Or take back the Javy deal and stick Chris B. Young in CF.

 

That would be a pretty potent line-up.

Chris Young really hasn't been that dominant of a bat and he's got a contract that is moderately expensive for his performance as of this year.

[JoshPR]

Kenny has been good with reclamation projects guys like Humber and smaller moves have paid dividends

[Balta1701]

Kenny has been good with reclamation projects guys like Humber and smaller moves have paid dividends

So we're in a situation where the minor moves keep paying off bigtime and the major moves keep busting big time.