Sox Trade Busts vs. Other Team

[chisoxt]

Hindsight is 20/20. Everyone loved getting Flowers for Javy, the Teahen TRADE was met with "ok", extension another matter. Initial Swisher trade I wasn't on this board for, so I can't say, but it looked good at the time.

 

As for the bolded, name me 20-25 GM's better.

 

I can name a lot worse.

 

Jim Hendry - Self explanatory.

Ed Wade - Think the Sox have fallen far since '05?

Mark Shapiro - I don't care about this year, especially since they just payed a kings ransom for Ubaldo. Plus, he blew the CC and Lee trades.

Dayton Moore - I'm waiting for the fabled Royals dynasty

Jack Zduriencik - Makes our lineup look like the Red Sox lineup.

Ned Colletti - Santana for Blake, Manny extension, Pierre contract, Jones contract, etc.

John Mozeliak - Lucked into Berkman being productive, terrible IF after Pujols, got fleeced for Rasmus.

Jed Hoyer - He was the Red Sox puppet and that was it.

Mike Rizzo - If not for lucking into Strasburg - Harper - Rendon, Nats fans would kill themselves.

Andy MacPhail - The O's just aren't good. Won't be good.

Billy Beane - "Moneyball". I can't believe there is a movie.

I would take Mike Rizzo over KW any day. In the limited he has been there, he has done a nice job with the Nats, though it was stupid of him not to have pedaled Dunn last year.Whether he 'screwed' Kenny last year at the trade deadline is anybody's guess, but in my view if he did renig on a deal that would have sent Jackson and another Sox prospect to Washington in return for three months of a slumping Adam Dunn, it probably saved Kenny from making one more of his stupid deadline deals.

 

Rizzo's approach of scouting, drafting, and player development is the way to go in today's game, and until JR understands this, it will be a long time before this franchise contends on a consistent basis.

[Balta1701]

I would take Mike Rizzo over KW any day. In the limited he has been there, he has done a nice job with the Nats, though it was stupid of him not to have pedaled Dunn last year.Whether he 'screwed' Kenny last year at the trade deadline is anybody's guess, but in my view if he did renig on a deal that would have sent Jackson and another Sox prospect to Washington in return for three months of a slumping Adam Dunn, it probably saved Kenny from making one more of his stupid deadline deals.

 

Rizzo's approach of scouting, drafting, and player development is the way to go in today's game, and until JR understands this, it will be a long time before this franchise contends on a consistent basis.

Jayson Werth's $126 million and .222 average/.707 OPS fully agree that blowing that kind of money on Adam Dunn is crazy. Until the White Sox understand that you can't blow that kind of money on players and you have to draft and develop like the Nationals do, they'll never succeed.

[rowand's rowdies]

That is one of the few lineups I could think of that would be worse than our current one.

 

How is that worse? I'd take Viciendo Sweeney and Getz over Morel Dunn and Rios this season.

[Vance Law]

Of course credit must be given for successes, mostly pitchers, as I try to think of position player trades that were really great and can't think of ONE.

 

um, Jim Thome

 

[Quin]

Or take back the Javy deal and stick Chris B. Young in CF.

 

That would be a pretty potent line-up.

 

Quinarv, where is Chris Sale in your line-up/roster rendition? Starting in Charlotte or Birmingham? Rotation depth?

 

2B is another obvious weakness with Getz. Keeping Uribe would have solved that infield issue (yeah, I know it wasn't realistic to pay him as a starter heading in 2009). But it was a big mistake not to keep him on the roster SOMEHOW.

 

You really can't play Juan Pierre in CF, either. It would have to be Viciedo in RF, Sweeney in CF and Pierre in LF. Not with Juan's arm.

 

Sale is in Charlotte getting his arm ready for when Peavy leaves.

 

I miss Laundry Baby Pimp (my sister-in-laws phonetic mis-hearing of "Juan Uribe is a pimp").

 

Still, Sweeney is having a hell of a time in that OF since he's not a CF and now covering for Pierre and Dayan.

 

Chris Young really hasn't been that dominant of a bat and he's got a contract that is moderately expensive for his performance as of this year.

 

Thank you. Chris Young kinda sucks.

 

I would take Mike Rizzo over KW any day. In the limited he has been there, he has done a nice job with the Nats, though it was stupid of him not to have pedaled Dunn last year.Whether he 'screwed' Kenny last year at the trade deadline is anybody's guess, but in my view if he did renig on a deal that would have sent Jackson and another Sox prospect to Washington in return for three months of a slumping Adam Dunn, it probably saved Kenny from making one more of his stupid deadline deals.

 

Rizzo's approach of scouting, drafting, and player development is the way to go in today's game, and until JR understands this, it will be a long time before this franchise contends on a consistent basis.

 

 

Jayson Werth's $126 million and .222 average/.707 OPS fully agree that blowing that kind of money on Adam Dunn is crazy. Until the White Sox understand that you can't blow that kind of money on players and you have to draft and develop like the Nationals do, they'll never succeed.

 

Balta answered it. But seriously, Mike Rizzo may be the worst GM in all of baseball if Ed Wade didn't exist. Hands down.

 

He handled Riggleman poorly, Werth, blew trading Dunn, and of course when you can draft Strasburg you "develop"players well. Other than Stras and Storen, I can't think of another player he developed.

 

That is one of the few lineups I could think of that would be worse than our current one.

 

 

How is that worse? I'd take Viciendo Sweeney and Getz over Morel Dunn and Rios this season.

 

Who is this mythical Viciendo? I'm a huge Dayan Viciedo fan, I have a Viciedo shirt. So yes, he beats Dunn. Sweeney beats Rios. Getz is barely better than Morel and that's not counting the D upgrade of Morel at 3rd and Beckham at second. Also, Getz is made of glass so Lilli or Eduardo Escobar would be at 2nd.

 

But also, on paper, going into this year, without 20/20 hindsight, Rios and Dunn >>>>>>>>> Sweeney & Getz

um, Jim Thome

 

Thank you.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Let's hold off on calling AA the best GM in baseball til Toronto does something.

 

No, my friend, we don't have to wait. AA is the unequivocal best GM this sport has to offer. And it took him less than two years to snatch this title away from one Andrew Friedman. Let's start from the beginning shall we:

 

1: The Halladay trade. Roy already had one foot out the door, as he was one year away from FA. And unlike J.P. Ricciardi, a proven moron, AA had the stones to deal his best asset and get a killer return: Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Travis d'Arnaud. He flips Taylor for Brett Wallace and then Wallace for Anthony Gose. Scouts say Gose's speed and defense compare favorably to B.J. Upton. D'Arnaud might be the best catching prospect in baseball. Drabek has struggled this year, as anybody would with that BB rate, but the stuff is still there if you believe the scouts. Considering the circumstances, AA got it done.

 

2: Brandon League for Brandon Morrow? Are you serious? League is a third-tier closer, while Brandon Morrow has some of the sickest stuff the game has to offer. As his league-leading (for starting pitchers) 10.7 K/9 over the last two years demonstrates.

 

3: Alex Gonzalez and Jo-Jo Reyes for Yunel Escobar? Again, are you serious? AA swindled the Braves. That's no easy task. Gonzalez is 34 and struggling to keep his OPS above .600. Yunel Escobar, who's SIX years younger, has been the third best SS in baseball according to fangraphs.

 

4: Vernon Wells and the $86 million left on his deal for Juan Rivera and Mike Napoli. Might be the best move of the last decade. Then he turns around and flips Napoli, a guy they didn't need, as they're fine at 1B and stacked at catcher, for Frank Francisco. A dynamite set-up/closer with a 10.27 K/9 since 2009.

 

5: Shaun Marcum for Brett Lawrie. Talk about selling high on a good, not great, pitcher. Lawrie is one of the elite prospects in the game who's already making an impact with Toronto. KW could never get a Lawrie for a John Danks.

 

6: The Rasmus deal. Don't have to say much here. As the details about this transaction are pretty fresh in our minds.

 

Rasmus: under team control through 2015

 

Escobar: under team control through 2015

 

Morrow: under team control through 2013

 

Lawrie: under team control for the next 6 years

 

A consensus top 3-5 system in all of baseball due to some very strong drafts the last 3 years. Yes, AA is the Michael Jordan of his profession. It's just a matter of time for Toronto.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Jordan4life

[Balta1701]

And out of every one of those players you mentioned, the only one who has really contributed positively to the Blue Jays so far is Escobar.

 

I love some of the methods you use to prove his dominance. Frank Francisco has a stellar k/9 and a 1.471 WHIP, for example.

[Jordan4life_2007]

And out of every one of those players you mentioned, the only one who has really contributed positively to the Blue Jays so far is Escobar.

 

I love some of the methods you use to prove his dominance. Frank Francisco has a stellar k/9 and a 1.471 WHIP, for example.

 

I didn't say he was Mike Adams. That was a good move, IMO. Napoli had no place there. Got a reliever with really good stuff. And he's a FA after this year. So they're in the drivers seat either way. Fact is the Blue Jays are young, talented and cost-controlled. What more could you ask of a GM in their situation pre-AA? Starting next year, they won't have a single even semi-bad contract on their roster. Now the trick will be getting free agents to come to Canada. As they'll have a ton of money to spend if they so choose.

[Balta1701]

I didn't say he was Mike Adams. That was a good move, IMO. Napoli had no place there. Got a reliever with really good stuff. And he's a FA after this year. So they're in the drivers seat either way. Fact is the Blue Jays are young, talented and cost-controlled. What more could you ask of a GM in their situation pre-AA? Starting next year, they won't have a single even semi-bad contract on their roster. Now the trick will be getting free agents to come to Canada. As they'll have a ton of money to spend if they so choose.

No, the real trick is taking all of this potential you rave about and turning it into actual on the field performance. That's where you can say a guy is the best in the business.

[Jordan4life_2007]

No, the real trick is taking all of this potential you rave about and turning it into actual on the field performance. That's where you can say a guy is the best in the business.

 

Yeah, that's how any GM will be ultimately judged. But to do all he's done in less than two years? He's got my vote. They're a mirror image, IMO, of Friedman and Tampa.

[Kyyle23]

Can Rizzo honestly be credited with developing Strasburg and Storen? Didnt both of them spend less than a year in the minors? And Strasburg blew his arm out in less than 2 months....

 

The Nats are drafting well, unfortunately this is because they are drafting extremely high due to some historically bad seasons, but at least they didnt pull a Pittsburgh and screw up multiple years drafting in the top 10

[Balta1701]

Can Rizzo honestly be credited with developing Strasburg and Storen? Didnt both of them spend less than a year in the minors? And Strasburg blew his arm out in less than 2 months....

 

The Nats are drafting well, unfortunately this is because they are drafting extremely high due to some historically bad seasons, but at least they didnt pull a Pittsburgh and screw up multiple years drafting in the top 10

They also had probably the 2 easiest draft choices in the last decade too.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Yeah, even I can't give Rizzo any credit. They just sucked the right years.

[caulfield12]

Arencibia's really struggling the second half of this year.

 

Aaron Hill has regressed. 3B has been a train wreck for TOR for quite awhile now (obviously they feel they have a solution for that problem).

 

And Travis Snyder has been one of the biggest disappointments they've had in half a decade.

 

So they've made a lot of great moves on paper to put themselves in position. As Ozzie says, "the big leagues is all about performance/winning, and not development." In the end, the jury's still out on what has actually been accomplished.

 

As usual, 3-5 years out will give a much better picture.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Arencibia's really struggling the second half of this year.

 

Aaron Hill has regressed. 3B has been a train wreck for TOR for quite awhile now (obviously they feel they have a solution for that problem).

 

And Travis Snyder has been one of the biggest disappointments they've had in half a decade.

 

So they've made a lot of great moves on paper to put themselves in position. As Ozzie says, "the big leagues is all about performance/winning, and not development." In the end, the jury's still out on what has actually been accomplished.

 

As usual, 3-5 years out will give a much better picture.

 

None of the players you name here were acquired/drafted by AA.

[caulfield12]

I just meant they have a hangover of problems inherited from JP.

 

LF, you need something better than Thames or Rajai Davis long-term.

 

And Drabek has obviously regressed this season. That has to be a bit of a concern.

 

And it's still a big difference when you can have a pitcher for 2 full seasons (Marcum) versus just one or 1 1/3rd (Danks).

 

 

If you're KW, it's hard to know what's going to happen with Buehrle. You can't trade Danks AND lose Buehrle if you hope to compete in 2012.

 

Floyd, Peavy, Humber, Stewart, Sale

 

That would be the starting rotation. Try selling season tickets with that. Good luck. Just losing Buehrle or Konerko alone will drive them into the low 20,000's per game unless they lead the division for most of the way like in 2008 and get off to a hot start (in other words, the opposite of the last 2 seasons).

Edited August 7, 2011 by caulfield12

[Jordan4life_2007]

I just meant they have a hangover of problems inherited from JP.

 

LF, you need something better than Thames or Rajai Davis long-term.

 

And Drabek has obviously regressed this season. That has to be a bit of a concern.

 

And it's still a big difference when you can have a pitcher for 2 full seasons (Marcum) versus just one or 1 1/3rd (Danks).

 

 

If you're KW, it's hard to know what's going to happen with Buehrle. You can't trade Danks AND lose Buehrle if you hope to compete in 2012.

 

Floyd, Peavy, Humber, Stewart, Sale

 

That would be the starting rotation. Try selling season tickets with that. Good luck. Just losing Buehrle or Konerko alone will drive them into the low 20,000's per game unless they lead the division for most of the way like in 2008 and get off to a hot start (in other words, the opposite of the last 2 seasons).

 

Agree with you about the LF situation. Arencibia's power is legit. His .235 ISO is tops in baseball among catchers. The average/OBP/defense has to improve. Snider has sucked so far. Hill is a FA after this year. So it's not like they're obligated to him. And you're right about Drabek. Big disappointment this year. Still, AA has put them in a great position financially. I don't know what more could've been asked of any GM in less than two years.

 

[Balta1701]

AA also signed Bautista to a 5 year/$64 million deal that really does have to be viewed as a gamble. If nothing else, since the AS break he's put up a .725 OPS. If you'd asked me which contract was the bigger gamble coming into the year, that or Adam Dunn, everyone anywhere would have said Bautista.

[SoxAce]

Anyone who got rid of that Wells contract (without even paying a cent of that contract) is already top 10 in my book.

[Quin]

I love agreeing with J4L for once.

[Heads22]

No, my friend, we don't have to wait. AA is the unequivocal best GM this sport has to offer. And it took him less than two years to snatch this title away from one Andrew Friedman. Let's start from the beginning shall we:

 

1: The Halladay trade. Roy already had one foot out the door, as he was one year away from FA. And unlike J.P. Ricciardi, a proven moron, AA had the stones to deal his best asset and get a killer return: Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor and Travis d'Arnaud. He flips Taylor for Brett Wallace and then Wallace for Anthony Gose. Scouts say Gose's speed and defense compare favorably to B.J. Upton. D'Arnaud might be the best catching prospect in baseball. Drabek has struggled this year, as anybody would with that BB rate, but the stuff is still there if you believe the scouts. Considering the circumstances, AA got it done.

 

2: Brandon League for Brandon Morrow? Are you serious? League is a third-tier closer, while Brandon Morrow has some of the sickest stuff the game has to offer. As his league-leading (for starting pitchers) 10.7 K/9 over the last two years demonstrates.

 

3: Alex Gonzalez and Jo-Jo Reyes for Yunel Escobar? Again, are you serious? AA swindled the Braves. That's no easy task. Gonzalez is 34 and struggling to keep his OPS above .600. Yunel Escobar, who's SIX years younger, has been the third best SS in baseball according to fangraphs.

 

4: Vernon Wells and the $86 million left on his deal for Juan Rivera and Mike Napoli. Might be the best move of the last decade. Then he turns around and flips Napoli, a guy they didn't need, as they're fine at 1B and stacked at catcher, for Frank Francisco. A dynamite set-up/closer with a 10.27 K/9 since 2009.

 

5: Shaun Marcum for Brett Lawrie. Talk about selling high on a good, not great, pitcher. Lawrie is one of the elite prospects in the game who's already making an impact with Toronto. KW could never get a Lawrie for a John Danks.

 

6: The Rasmus deal. Don't have to say much here. As the details about this transaction are pretty fresh in our minds.

 

Rasmus: under team control through 2015

 

Escobar: under team control through 2015

 

Morrow: under team control through 2013

 

Lawrie: under team control for the next 6 years

 

A consensus top 3-5 system in all of baseball due to some very strong drafts the last 3 years. Yes, AA is the Michael Jordan of his profession. It's just a matter of time for Toronto.

 

 

Like I said, hold off until he finishes any higher than fourth in his division.

[caulfield12]

"Just Win, Baby!"

 

 

[South Paw]

Like I said, hold off until he finishes any higher than fourth in his division.

 

Agreed. While all of these look great on paper, we're still dealing with unknowns here. The only move that we can safely say has helped their team at this point has been unloading Wells' contract. A GM should be judged on the performance of the team so can we please wait until the Jays make the playoffs and some of these prospects pan out before anointing this man "the best GM in baseball?" I know they're in a incredibly tough division but we saw with the Rays that it's entirely possible to compete in if not win the AL East with good young talent.

 

Also, regarding the Wells trade, I would say that AA just got lucky with that one. Anybody in his situation would try to trade the guy given his contract and lack of production, and AA just found someone stupid enough to take on the entire contract and even send back a couple of mediocre prospects. KW is definitely dangling Rios out there and will trade him for almost anything if it means the other team taking on the entire contract. That doesn't make him a great GM, just not f***ing stupid.

Edited August 8, 2011 by South Paw

[chw42]

AA is easily my favorite GM right now. He gets great young cost-controlled talent by buying low. Guys like Escobar and Rasmus aren't huge gambles because they're cheap to begin with. If they fail, then so be it, you didn't spend a fortune. But if they succeed, then your net return is so much greater than acquiring a guy making $10+ million by trade or signing said player.

 

In addition, guys like Escobar and Rasmus have shown that they can play at a high level before. They're not prospects, they were guys who had off years due to circumstances out of their control (in this case, it was their managers having a problem with them). A change in environment can mean a lot for a young player who doesn't get along with the man in charge and it's not like you lose your ability to play baseball in your mid 20s.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Jayson Werth's $126 million and .222 average/.707 OPS fully agree that blowing that kind of money on Adam Dunn is crazy. Until the White Sox understand that you can't blow that kind of money on players and you have to draft and develop like the Nationals do, they'll never succeed.

 

Getting the #1 picks two years in a row shouldn't ever be considered "successful" for a GM.