Brent Morel

[SoxAce]

I think that trade is more about the fact that we got Pena. And honestly, every Sox fan should be allowed about having traded for him.

 

It was a bad investment who was, at the time, one of the sox top prospects. (sad farm or not) Never was a fan of trading talented prospects for relievers, especially ones who didn't have much of a track record to begin with, but thats just me personally.

 

Looked damn good last night vs. the dangerous Astros

 

Yes I'm sure every pitcher never has an off night...

[caulfield12]

Allen's like the poor man's Mark Grace, or the rich man's Ryan Sweeney (or however that goes).

 

He better hit .320 or .330 every season because he's only going to give you 12-18 homers per year.

 

That's not enough for 1B/DH.

 

In some ways, he's reminiscent of Michael Morse. Long, athletic build. Doesn't really have a position (at the moment) where his bat's a "plus" tool.

[bigruss]

Autocorrect?

lol something happened there.

[chw42]

Yeah, I'm really sick of evaluating every single aspect of a baseball player based on OPS.

 

I don't care if he's the best defensive 3B in the world, even that wouldn't make him a good player since his offense is so damn bad.

 

Morel has so little power that his ISO is the same as Juan Pierre's! Yes, you read that correctly. Did I mention his SLG is lower than Pierre's as well? And did I also mention that his Batting Runs (based on wOBA) is 5 runs lower than Pierre's?

 

You see everybody (mostly J4L) b****ing about Pierre's horrid offense and then you have...Brent Morel...who is even worse!

 

Whoever told Morel to change his approach to a slappy singles hitter with no patience needs to get whacked with a bat. Because he would have been a lot more productive if he hit like he did in the short stint he was up here last season.

 

To add on to this barrage of amazing Brent Morel facts...

 

Morel is second to last in wOBA by a 3B in the AL with at least 250 PAs (3rd to last in all of baseball). He has the second worst wRC+ of any 3B in baseball. In both of those cases, he is only beaten by the one and only Chone Figgins. Morel's .252 wOBA (which is lower than his BA, something I've rarely seen) is 4th worst in all of baseball among players with at least 250 PAs, and his wRC+ is third worst in all of baseball.

 

So...Morel needs to take some walks and stop hitting like Juan Pierre.

Edited August 9, 2011 by chw42

[witesoxfan]

Allen's like the poor man's Mark Grace, or the rich man's Ryan Sweeney (or however that goes).

 

He better hit .320 or .330 every season because he's only going to give you 12-18 homers per year.

 

That's not enough for 1B/DH.

 

In some ways, he's reminiscent of Michael Morse. Long, athletic build. Doesn't really have a position (at the moment) where his bat's a "plus" tool.

 

What on earth are you talking about? Allen's power is his best attribute and is going to be the reason he has a career in the majors at all. In 250 games at the AAA level, he hit 57 homers with an Iso of .266 and he showed excellent plate discipline.

 

Recently, Allen has actually been hitting lefties quite a bit better, which is what actually turned him into a legitimate prospect. He doesn't appear to hit with near the same power against lefties, but he can absolutely be a quality, .850 OPS type 1B at the MLB level. And this is coming from a guy who has never really liked Brandon Allen and hasn't been overly harsh on Williams about the Pena trade. He's not going to have to hit .320 or .330 - that's absurd, really - because he's going to be able to produce 25-30 homers a year.

[Balta1701]

I don't care if he's the best defensive 3B in the world, even that wouldn't make him a good player since his offense is so damn bad.

 

Morel has so little power that his ISO is the same as Juan Pierre's! Yes, you read that correctly. Did I mention his SLG is lower than Pierre's as well? And did I also mention that his Batting Runs (based on wOBA) is 5 runs lower than Pierre's?

I believe that we can all recall last year how Pierre wasn't a terribly below average player because he played excellent defense in LF.

[chw42]

I believe that we can all recall last year how Pierre wasn't a terribly below average player because he played excellent defense in LF.

 

The problem with Morel is that he's about 50 points behind Juan Pierre's wOBA from last year.

[caulfield12]

What on earth are you talking about? Allen's power is his best attribute and is going to be the reason he has a career in the majors at all. In 250 games at the AAA level, he hit 57 homers with an Iso of .266 and he showed excellent plate discipline.

 

Recently, Allen has actually been hitting lefties quite a bit better, which is what actually turned him into a legitimate prospect. He doesn't appear to hit with near the same power against lefties, but he can absolutely be a quality, .850 OPS type 1B at the MLB level. And this is coming from a guy who has never really liked Brandon Allen and hasn't been overly harsh on Williams about the Pena trade. He's not going to have to hit .320 or .330 - that's absurd, really - because he's going to be able to produce 25-30 homers a year.

 

 

Do you really think KW would have traded Allen for a middle reliever if he truly believed he would have put up those numbers with the Sox?

 

At the time, there was a TON of uncertainty about whether Konerko would still be with the Sox long-term.

 

And, just as importantly, with uncertainty about Thome going forward, they desperately needed a LH power bat in the pipeline.

 

So if he was really going to put up 25-30 homers per year, why did the White Sox and DBacks give up on him so quickly?

 

Why aren't the A's playing Allen or Carter there (1B/DH) TODAY? Their season is already over, playing Conor Jackson does them no good at all for the future.

 

850 OPS? Really? Is that in a platoon or with everyday playing time? Are you sure you're adjusting those numbers for the PCL or wherever he's been putting up those 57 homers?

 

He is striking out once every 2.5 at-bats at the major league level and hitting around .200. We should have just kept Joe Borchard and stuck him at 1B if those numbers were the goal. We already have Adam Dunn to do that, we don't need another.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Do you really think KW would have traded Allen for a middle reliever if he truly believed he would have put up those numbers with the Sox?

 

At the time, there was a TON of uncertainty about whether Konerko would still be with the Sox long-term.

 

And, just as importantly, with uncertainty about Thome going forward, they desperately needed a LH power bat in the pipeline.

 

So if he was really going to put up 25-30 homers per year, why did the White Sox and DBacks give up on him so quickly?

 

Why aren't the A's playing Allen or Carter there (1B/DH) TODAY? Their season is already over, playing Conor Jackson does them no good at all for the future.

 

850 OPS? Really? Is that in a platoon or with everyday playing time?

That's why we still come back to this trade.

 

Even if he had a 1/20 shot of putting up a .800+ OPS at 1b, that was a position where it would have been great to have some depth, and the return for that guy was a "Coop will fix him" level reliever.

[caulfield12]

1. Allen/Pena flop

2. Swisher I

3. Swisher II

4. Javy deal (unless you feel Lillibridge was the main target and not Flowers and are willing to buy it just as a salary dump)

5. Jackson/Hudson/Holmberg

6. Teahen acquisition and extension

7. Juan Pierre

8. Manny Ramirez

9. Crain hasn't even looked like a great signing considering our commitment going forward

10. Paying Thornton like a psuedo-closer with his extension

11. Rios

12. Dunn

13. Peavy (not the deal itself, but what has happened since)

14. Ohman (mehhhhhhhhh, wasted money)

15. Being "All In" with a one pitch closer and Brent Morel as your starting 3B

 

Everything KW has touched has turned to crap. If this team just stood pat after 2006 (with the exception of the Thome deal) or 2008, we'd be 200% better off than we are today without all of Williams' incessant tinkering and fixing and adjusting.

 

Allen's power numbers, Carter's power numbers....even Brent Morel's last year in the minors, pretty much meaningless at this point.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Everything KW has touched has turned to crap. If this team just stood pat after 2006 (with the exception of the Thome deal) or 2008, we'd be 200% better off than we are today without all of Williams' incessant tinkering and fixing and adjusting.

Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and Floyd have been kinda important, wouldn't you agree?

[caulfield12]

Even if you add Humber/Sale/Santos/Viciedo to your list, we're still close to screwed.

 

Tell me how you plan to bring back Buehrle, Quentin, Danks, Floyd and Konerko next year. The numbers will never add up no matter how much you tweak things.

 

I'm sure they can trade Thornton for a Type B prospect and/or Frasor (or take the compensation pick back) OR Crain.

 

But every move that eliminates one of those five remaining core players from the team puts your further away from contention in 2012.

 

Trade away Ramirez and it's still hard to imagine how that can make you better short-term.

Edited August 9, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

I think the right moves for next year are to trade Q and Danks, give Viciedo one of the corner OF spots, and do what needs to be done to find a leadoff hitter. That could be De Aza or a De Aza/Lillibridge combination in LF and I wouldn't be terrifically angry yet without seeing the trade/FA returns.

 

We're still stacked with 5 starting pitchers next year, assuming they do the right thing with Sale, and that's without bringing back Buehrle, which the Chairman might go over budget for. We need bullpen depth for that to work.

[caulfield12]

Balta, do you really think season ticket holders are going to buy Peavy/Floyd/Humber/Sale/Stewart?

 

I wouldn't call that "stacked." I would call it arguably the worst rotation in the division except for KC...that's four huge question marks. Even if Peavy pitches as well as he has the last 2-3 starts, like a 2-3 starter and not a 5.

 

Does anyone want to count on Humber for next year, with how things have gone south the last month?

 

DET has Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, Fister and Jacob Turner locked up through 2014.

 

CLE has Jimenez, Masterson, Carmona, Carrasco and Tomlin.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6827458/...rong-top-bottom

 

Minnesota looks to be better than us with Liriano, Baker, Blackburn, Duensing and Kyle Gibson.

 

We obviously don't have the hitting, our bullpen will be weakened losing Thornton/Crain/Frasor (possibly 2 of the 3) AND Sale.

Ohman or Santiago would be the primary lefty, unless we get one in return for Danks or Quentin. Theoretically they keep the suddenly expensive Thornton, but payroll has to go down. It's certain they won't be able to keep Thornton/Crain/Frasor when they cut the payroll.

 

As much as we might not like it, 2012 also is riding entirely on the shoulders or Rios/Dunn/Beckham. All of them have to be great because Konerko won't or can't keep this up forever, and Viciedo still we be essentialy a rookie, so expecting him to replicate Quentin's numbers from 2011 is pretty much unrealistic.

 

Balta, do you imagine any season ticket holders being enthused about ponying up for tickets solely based on optimism about Viciedo and the prospects we get back for Quentin/Danks? And with the better than 50/50 chance now of losing Buehrle?

 

It looks scary. KW simply HAS to get any trade for Crain/Frasor, Danks and Quentin 100% right. ZERO margin for error at all.

Edited August 9, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

After this season, I don't know if the Season Ticket Holders would by "Pujols".

 

Frankly, we need to stop making decisions based on what season ticket holders want, if we've made any. If that young rotation with a lot of upside in its arms gives us a good chance to compete next year and build for the next 2-3, then it's a mistake to care about season ticket owners. They'll regret losing their seats if you put a winning team out there.

[caulfield12]

On the surface, that looks like a rotation that's capable of winning 72-78 games.

 

Sale is the obvious question mark. He's either an ace or everything falls apart and he goes back to the pen. No in-between seemingly.

 

For KW's sake, he better be more like Randy Johnson than Rick Ankiel.

 

 

Signing Pujols would be perfect, since we already have Konerko and Dunn.

Maybe we could make him play 3B again, haha.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

On the surface, that looks like a rotation that's capable of winning 72-78 games.

 

Sale is the obvious question mark. He's either an ace or everything falls apart and he goes back to the pen. No in-between seemingly.

 

For KW's sake, he better be more like Randy Johnson than Rick Ankiel.

With Adam Dunn and Alex Rios and Gordon Beckham and Brent Morel putting up OPS numbers in the .600's, yeah, that's a rotation capable of winning 72-78 games...I think they certainly could do better, but they are young.

 

We need some offense from the guys we currently have. We've already blown our money on that offense. If it doesn't perform, then we're SOL either way...we don't have the money to blow on a pitching staff upgrade from this season.

[JohnCangelosi]

Balta, do you really think season ticket holders are going to buy Peavy/Floyd/Humber/Sale/Stewart?

 

I wouldn't call that "stacked." I would call it arguably the worst rotation in the division except for KC...that's four huge question marks. Even if Peavy pitches as well as he has the last 2-3 starts, like a 2-3 starter and not a 5.

 

Does anyone want to count on Humber for next year, with how things have gone south the last month?

 

DET has Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, Fister and Jacob Turner locked up through 2014.

 

CLE has Jimenez, Masterson, Carmona, Carrasco and Tomlin.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6827458/...rong-top-bottom

 

Minnesota looks to be better than us with Liriano, Baker, Blackburn, Duensing and Kyle Gibson.

 

We obviously don't have the hitting, our bullpen will be weakened losing Thornton/Crain/Frasor (possibly 2 of the 3) AND Sale.

Ohman or Santiago would be the primary lefty, unless we get one in return for Danks or Quentin. Theoretically they keep the suddenly expensive Thornton, but payroll has to go down. It's certain they won't be able to keep Thornton/Crain/Frasor when they cut the payroll.

 

As much as we might not like it, 2012 also is riding entirely on the shoulders or Rios/Dunn/Beckham. All of them have to be great because Konerko won't or can't keep this up forever, and Viciedo still we be essentialy a rookie, so expecting him to replicate Quentin's numbers from 2011 is pretty much unrealistic.

 

Balta, do you imagine any season ticket holders being enthused about ponying up for tickets solely based on optimism about Viciedo and the prospects we get back for Quentin/Danks? And with the better than 50/50 chance now of losing Buehrle?

 

It looks scary. KW simply HAS to get any trade for Crain/Frasor, Danks and Quentin 100% right. ZERO margin for error at all.

 

I know it sounds crazy but I think JR goes for another 125M budget next year. He can cry poor all day long but my guess is they are still making money at that number, believe it or not...

 

[LittleHurt05]

Balta, do you really think season ticket holders are going to buy Peavy/Floyd/Humber/Sale/Stewart?

 

I wouldn't call that "stacked." I would call it arguably the worst rotation in the division except for KC...that's four huge question marks. Even if Peavy pitches as well as he has the last 2-3 starts, like a 2-3 starter and not a 5.

 

Does anyone want to count on Humber for next year, with how things have gone south the last month?

 

DET has Verlander, Scherzer, Porcello, Fister and Jacob Turner locked up through 2014.

 

CLE has Jimenez, Masterson, Carmona, Carrasco and Tomlin.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/6827458/...rong-top-bottom

 

Minnesota looks to be better than us with Liriano, Baker, Blackburn, Duensing and Kyle Gibson.

 

I'll argue that it's not the worst rotation and other ones have question marks too. Ubaldo is switching to the AL and has had a down year. Carmona forgets how to throw strikes every other start, and I don't see how Carrasco/Tomlin are really all that much more proven than Sale/Stewart.

 

That Twins rotation doesn't look all that good either when they aren't facing the White Sox. Liriano has the stuff but has been all over the place 2 of the last 3 seasons. Blackburn/Duensing have ERAs over 4.50. Baker is facing a 2nd DL trip and Gibson has yet to pitch in the majors.

 

I will give you Detroit, but that's mostly based on the strength of their top two pitchers.

 

 

[ChiSox_Sonix]

1. Allen/Pena flop

2. Swisher I

3. Swisher II

4. Javy deal (unless you feel Lillibridge was the main target and not Flowers and are willing to buy it just as a salary dump) I read through that thread earlier today...consensus on this board was we got a great haul for Javy and KW did a good job with that one

5. Jackson/Hudson/Holmberg

6. Teahen acquisition and extension

7. Juan Pierre Meh, hard to really b**** about it

8. Manny Ramirez

9. Crain hasn't even looked like a great signing considering our commitment going forward GMAB he's been fantastic this year

10. Paying Thornton like a psuedo-closer with his extension After his rough patch he's been very good back in the set-up role

11. Rios

12. Dunn No. Only like two people on this site have any right to say anything about this. This board (and pretty much every analyst or media member) LOVED the trade

13. Peavy (not the deal itself, but what has happened since)

14. Ohman (mehhhhhhhhh, wasted money) Again, you apparently haven't noticed how well he's pitched this year.

15. Being "All In" with a one pitch closer and Brent Morel as your starting 3B

 

Everything KW has touched has turned to crap. If this team just stood pat after 2006 (with the exception of the Thome deal) or 2008, we'd be 200% better off than we are today without all of Williams' incessant tinkering and fixing and adjusting.

 

Allen's power numbers, Carter's power numbers....even Brent Morel's last year in the minors, pretty much meaningless at this point.

 

Yawn, really? First of all, first statement there is just not true. And secondly, you have zero idea what would have happened without those moves. None. Saying something like that with such certainty is ridiculous

Edited August 9, 2011 by ChiSox_Sonix

[Soxfest]

This is the sub-.600 OPS squad on the Sox.

 

Adam Dunn 96 331 30 54 13 0 11 39 100 58 142 0 1 .163 .294 .302 .596

 

Brent Morel 79 255 22 66 10 0 1 19 79 4 29 2 4 .259 .278 .310 .587

 

Omar Vizquel 48 142 14 36 5 1 0 8 43 6 17 1 2 .254 .280 .303 .583

 

Mark Teahen† 51 118 11 24 3 0 3 11 36 12 28 0 1 .203 .277 .305 .582

 

Alex Rios 105 386 45 83 17 0 7 26 121 22 45 9 5 .215 .259 .313.572

 

Dunn and Rios have received well-deserved criticisms. Their bloated contracts make it impossible to move them, so we will have to hope they break out.

 

But why is Brent Morel getting a pass? Is he ever going to hit well enough to be a legitimate ML 3rd baseman? Of all the ML 3B listed this year, he ranks 45th. A few others as bad or worse have gotten around his 255 ABs -- Miguel Tejada, Juan Uribe, Chone Figgins, Brandon Inge -- but this doesn't seem a worthy reason to keep trotting Morel out there. And clearly Vizquel is no better.

 

My own view would be to bring up Dayan Viciedo to play 3B. He could also play some OF and DH, but the one place he'd make the most difference offensively would be 3B. We'd lose a little defensively, but we still need more offense, and Viciedo would be a significant upgrade.

Morel is very underwhelming and has braincramps all the time.

[Balta1701]

Morel is very underwhelming and has braincramps all the time.

no more than any other rookie

[Kyyle23]

I know it sounds crazy but I think JR goes for another 125M budget next year. He can cry poor all day long but my guess is they are still making money at that number, believe it or not...

 

them there's some Dick Allen fightin words right there

[caulfield12]

Yawn, really? First of all, first statement there is just not true. And secondly, you have zero idea what would have happened without those moves. None. Saying something like that with such certainty is ridiculous

 

 

Gilmore's never going to make it, and I guess there's a 25-50% chance that Rodriguez gets a shot sometime down the line with his stuff and being LH. Yes, it's hard to ever assess any acquisition because of steroids (but it's the GM's job to project players into the future and take past PED usage into account)...there are a lot of signs and blinking indicators that Flowers will never be a starting major league catcher, at least with the White Sox.

 

Crain has sucked for the last month. His stuff is just flat and his location has been wanting. If you want to blame Ozzie for overusing him, that's fine. Basically, Crain's 2011 season is starting to look like Linebrink's 2008.

 

Ohman was a waste of money. You have a decent farm system, you produce a guy like that and pay league minimum.

 

As far as Dunn goes, I guess I was somewhere in the middle. There always are concerns about any player switching from the NL to the AL, and about his being able to adjust to being a full-time DH. Those were logical concerns beyond just looking at the back of his baseball card.

 

The one thing that anyone on this board can say with much certainty is that KW has had a negative WAR-GM rating the last three years. It's hard to name more than 5-7 GM's who have clearly been worse during that time period. Without 2005-2008, he'd be finished like Dan Evans was in LA. Combine all the bad moves, Rios/Dunn/Hudson with the massive abyss that is the minor league system's current state of affairs and then Dave Wilder and it's hard to imagine many GM's retaining their job...except in Chicago, where JR is loyal to a fault. Same goes with Guillen and Walker, obviously.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Crain has sucked for the last month. His stuff is just flat and his location has been wanting. If you want to blame Ozzie for overusing him, that's fine. Basically, Crain's 2011 season is starting to look like Linebrink's 2008.

Crain has done this for a couple years. He gets in these funks where he seemingly can't get anyone out. We beat him in one of those funks a year or two ago I believe. There's a reason he doesn't put up ERA's of 1.50 every year, it's these "crain games" that happen to him every now and then. It's also probably why he's never going to close.