oldsox Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Who negotiated Dunn's contract, the richest, longest DH contract of all time, Kenny or Hahn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 No more ridiculous than Ricketts saying he's going to consult with knowledgeable baseball personnel (former GM's like Gillick, Alderson, etc.) to make the best decision on the Cubs' job. Honestly, he seems more like a fan than either a business-oriented owner or an expert on much of anything but African safaris. Would having Jim Hendry around to sign the draft picks matter? Won't those picks now feel misled (more) that he's no longer around...when it would have been more honest in the first place to let the AGM (Bush) do that stuff? Then he's saying Quade and the coaches are A+ quality people and deserve the opportunity to keep their jobs for 2012. Why would ANY GM come in with the condition that Mike Quade be the Cubs' manager for the following season when the GM who signed him is gone with the wind? Maybe I'm just in an uncomfortable position because I've heard too much "personal" stuff about Hahn from his former Harvard Law classmates for me to ever have a positive opinion about him. Maybe he's changed as a person since he was 22-25. I sincerely hope so. In the end, it's not about Hahn. The White Sox need a clean break...having KW's protege from the last decade is a better idea for organizations OTHER than the White Sox to experiment with. I suppose, because of his background and education, the White Sox can "sell/spin" Hahn as being one of the new breed of "hyper-educated" Ivy League GM's like Epstein, Daniels, etc. Plus, he was also around when all the Wilder stuff was going on and should have been more aware than KW because I would think he would/should have a greater amount of objectivity than KW with that particular situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (oldsox @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 08:42 AM) Who negotiated Dunn's contract, the richest, longest DH contract of all time, Kenny or Hahn? Hahn prefers to not directly talk with a player in the negotiating process, keeping the dealings primarily between himself and Landis, using Konerko as an example. According to Hahn, White Sox chairman Jerry Reinsdorf, who has a close relationship with Konerko, had a couple of offseason conversations with the team’s leader, but those were “more of an expression of appreciation and desire and hope.” [...] This final agreed-upon offer to Konerko was different from the original one made, and Hahn explained how there are very few situations where the team can say of an opening offer, ‘Here it is. Take it or leave it.’ Without going into too much detail, Hahn mentioned how initially there were disagreements with Konerko’s camp over length and structure, and by the end, they had to work through issues about deferral and cash flow flexibility to get it done. Scott Merkin One would have to ASSUME Hahn unless someone can find information to the contrary... It wasn't an overpay like Soriano by $40 million+ at least. Edited August 20, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 QUOTE (oldsox @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 09:42 AM) Who negotiated Dunn's contract, the richest, longest DH contract of all time, Kenny or Hahn? I don't get why people keep bringing up free agent contracts as a sign of his negotiating abilities. 90% of free agents go to the place offering the most money. Unless you pay well over what the next offer is, like the Rangers did with A-Rod or the Cubs did with Soriano, the price you get a free agent for has little do with negotiations (at least from the team's perspective) but rather what the market bears. If you want to judge him, I'd look more at extensions, arbitration matters, and draft pick signings. Those are the areas where I see his negotiating skills coming into play. Eventually as a GM, his ability to negotiate with other GMs would be critical, but I doubt he's had much exposure to that in his current role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Buffalo Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Aug 17, 2011 -> 05:53 PM) I have a feeling the Cubs will be calling and that's one of the few jobs he's probably holding out for. . That would be such a great move for the Cubs. I don't know anything about Hahn's ability as a GM, but there's really nothing for the Cubs to lose. If he doesn't work out, he's like so many other GMs who failed. If he works out, it really sticks it to the Sox and the Sox fans who wanted him as GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 10:15 AM) Maybe I'm just in an uncomfortable position because I've heard too much "personal" stuff about Hahn from his former Harvard Law classmates for me to ever have a positive opinion about him. Maybe he's changed as a person since he was 22-25. I sincerely hope so. First off, how many of his former Harvard Law classmates could you possibly know. Second, why in god's name would you judge someone for their actions when they were 22 - 25. Short of rape or murder, I think it's absolutely insane to hold someone's behavior when they were young against them years after the fact. Edited August 20, 2011 by Chicago White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 QUOTE (Middle Buffalo @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 09:41 AM) That would be such a great move for the Cubs. I don't know anything about Hahn's ability as a GM, but there's really nothing for the Cubs to lose. If he doesn't work out, he's like so many other GMs who failed. If he works out, it really sticks it to the Sox and the Sox fans who wanted him as GM. But isn't that basically the same argument as the one for the Sox hiring Ryne Sandberg as manager of the Sox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 12:09 PM) But isn't that basically the same argument as the one for the Sox hiring Ryne Sandberg as manager of the Sox? Rick Hahn's time as assistant GM is unlikely to land him in the Hall of Fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 So let's put together a list of pro's and con's 1. Seemingly very intelligent...innovative mind forged by studying different disciplines such as law, business/marketing 2. Decade of experience as KW's protege (could just as easily count that as a negative, though) 3. More reliance on statistical analysis 4. Good (existing/longstanding) relationships with MOST agents out there... 5. On most lists as one of the top 5-10 GM candidates in the sport, some as #1 (like SI.com) or #2 6. Harvard Law experience not exactly a selling point for Obama these days, either 7. Big ego like KW Weaknesses.... 1. Point 2 above 2. Wouldn't be perceived as a "regime change" by fans....it's not quite like Cora/Walker/Guillen, but fairly similar 3. Was also in Sox organization at time of Wilder fiasco 4. Limited playing/scouting knowledge 5. Has already been passed over for 2-4 GM jobs (the reverse "spin," he's very careful about what teams he would leave Sox/Cubs jobs for and turned a couple opportunities down already) 6. We don't know his REAL opinions about what should be done to "fix" Beckham, Rios and Dunn....or about ANY of the bad moves that KW has made the last 3 1/2 years...how much he supported them OR spoke out against 7. Can't be the GM if Ozzie Guillen is still the manager...Ozzie will run all over him, if he can run over a former player who put together a World Series roster and who's closer to JR than just about anyone (supposedly)...guess we don't know how close JR and Hahn actually are 8. Not a "flashy" name to the fanbase...or an outsider who will bring a totally different philosophy (farm system/development first) to the organization Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 11:08 AM) Rick Hahn's time as assistant GM is unlikely to land him in the Hall of Fame. On the other hand, Hahn is an obvious Top 5 choice for Cubs' GM. Sandberg would be about as popular to Sox fans as Steve Alford would be were he to come back to the University of Indiana as head coach after his previous failure at Iowa...some would love the idea, but the majority would be against it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 01:35 PM) On the other hand, Hahn is an obvious Top 5 choice for Cubs' GM. Sandberg would be about as popular to Sox fans as Steve Alford would be were he to come back to the University of Indiana as head coach after his previous failure at Iowa...some would love the idea, but the majority would be against it. Why would the majority be against Sandberg coaching the Sox? He's been in baseball a long time and has been building up a reservoir of coaching experience by working his way up through the minors. He's been working with young kids, several of whom are now having success with their big league squad. He seemingly has been willing to put aside any luxury trappings and actually work at becoming a manager. And unlike your example, Sandberg hasn't clearly done a weak job as a manager for another big league squad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 12:35 PM) Sandberg would be about as popular to Sox fans as Steve Alford would be were he to come back to the University of Indiana as head coach after his previous failure at Iowa...some would love the idea, but the majority would be against it. Meh. Other than maybe a few meathead fans, I don't think anyone would have a problem with Sandberg. It's not like he ever played vs. the Sox back then or caused any cross town riffs. He's a hall of fame hitter, I'm sure fans would give him a chance to succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanne Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 12:29 PM) Weaknesses.... 1. Point 2 above 2. Wouldn't be perceived as a "regime change" by fans....it's not quite like Cora/Walker/Guillen, but fairly similar 3. Was also in Sox organization at time of Wilder fiasco 4. Limited playing/scouting knowledge 5. Has already been passed over for 2-4 GM jobs (the reverse "spin," he's very careful about what teams he would leave Sox/Cubs jobs for and turned a couple opportunities down already) 6. We don't know his REAL opinions about what should be done to "fix" Beckham, Rios and Dunn....or about ANY of the bad moves that KW has made the last 3 1/2 years...how much he supported them OR spoke out against 7. Can't be the GM if Ozzie Guillen is still the manager...Ozzie will run all over him, if he can run over a former player who put together a World Series roster and who's closer to JR than just about anyone (supposedly)...guess we don't know how close JR and Hahn actually are 8. Not a "flashy" name to the fanbase...or an outsider who will bring a totally different philosophy (farm system/development first) to the organization These are my two biggest beefs for the people that suggest/want him to take over... Edited August 20, 2011 by Wanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Aug 20, 2011 -> 11:41 AM) Meh. Other than maybe a few meathead fans, I don't think anyone would have a problem with Sandberg. It's not like he ever played vs. the Sox back then or caused any cross town riffs. He's a hall of fame hitter, I'm sure fans would give him a chance to succeed. This. I'd like Sandberg as our next manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 (edited) KW and OG are talking up Hahn because they want him gone to try and save each others ass. Edited August 20, 2011 by Soxfest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) For right now, looks like the Cubs are going after really big names like Cashman/Girardi (combo), Esptein and Friedman... http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7572084.story http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,5919833.column Arguing for experienced "baseball men" like Gillick, Kasten, Alderson and Schuerholz http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,4889687.column Hahn and Steve Stone (consultant) combo for the Cubs? Edited August 21, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 06:39 AM) For right now, looks like the Cubs are going after really big names like Cashman/Girardi (combo), Esptein and Friedman... http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7572084.story http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,5919833.column Arguing for experienced "baseball men" like Gillick, Kasten, Alderson and Schuerholz http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,4889687.column Hahn and Steve Stone (consultant) combo for the Cubs? The Sox could use a new GM too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 It's a bit sad that we couldn't even consider going after the big names...whereas we're going to be considered quite lucky to be "stuck" with Rick Hahn if the Cubs aren't interested in pursuing him with all the other nationally-hyped entities in play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 21, 2011 -> 07:39 AM) For right now, looks like the Cubs are going after really big names like Cashman/Girardi (combo), Esptein and Friedman... http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7572084.story http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,5919833.column Arguing for experienced "baseball men" like Gillick, Kasten, Alderson and Schuerholz http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,4889687.column Hahn and Steve Stone (consultant) combo for the Cubs? That crap gets said every time that a change gets made. Then they end up with Mike Quade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 I would prefer to go with younger, more innovative GMs than older, experienced ones. New ideas and theories can be good for a team and can disrupt the status quo of the organization, which is a good thing. For the past 10 years, the Sox have been using their minor league system to acquire other players to fill the major league roster, but as this year has already proven, they need that minor league system to not only deal with injury but to also deal with ineffectiveness. I believe Hahn would place a greater emphasis on developing from within the organization itself and not misallocating resources by spending too much for too little of a return. Williams put together good XBox teams but it has cost the Sox quite a bit over the past few years. Instead, I think Hahn would go with something similar - though I can't imagine nearly as effective - as the Tampa Bay model, which is to say there will be more turnover and more minor sell-offs, but with the intention of always keeping some pieces in the minors in case some sort of replacement is needed. There are times where an experienced GM is a good thing - Melvin was great for both Texas and Milwaukee, Gillick has helped create a powerhouse in Philadelphia, Towers has seen an incredible turnaround in Arizona, and Jocketty has built a pretty good organization in Cincinnati. There are other times it backfires - Hart didn't really do anything in Texas, Bowden was a disaster in Washington, Minaya got the Mets to the playoffs and then subsequently destroyed them with ridiculous contracts (Madoff didn't help), Wade has been expectedly awful in Houston, and Andy MacPhail still has yet to see the Orioles win 80 games. At the end of the day, it's a matter of getting the right guy in place and surrounding him with the right people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 (edited) Do you really give Towers more credit than Byrnes for the DBacks? Would anything he did with the roster have mattered without that coaching staff in place? That's pretty powerful evidence that coaching/managing DOES matter AND significantly in this game. One veteran scout described their starting line-up as "7 utility guys and Justin Upton." That's being a little tough on Chris Young, but it's not too far off, either. A lot of Sox fans wanted Dan Evans and look how that would have ended... Edited August 22, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 22, 2011 -> 08:10 AM) One veteran scout described their starting line-up as "7 utility guys and Justin Upton." That would probably hold true in the AL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 Certainly, our starting line-up yesterday. Yet Lillibridge/DeAza/Flowers all bring new dimensions, approaches and "excitement" to what has been a season-long malaise. Viciedo will too, eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/...to-talk-to-cubs Chicago White Sox vice president and assistant general manager Rick Hahn has a clause in his contract that allows him to interview with a handful of team for a GM position, and the Chicago Cubs are on that list, a major league source told ESPNChicago.com's Bruce Levine. More On The Cubs Can't get enough Cubs information? ESPNChicago.com has all the latest from the North Side. Blog Jim Hendry was fired as Cubs GM on July 22, and he parted ways with the team on Friday. Hahn, who was selected as the top GM prospect by Baseball America last year, previously has interviewed for GM positions with the St. Louis Cardinals and New York Mets. He pulled himself out of contention for the Cardinals job after two interviews, and he finished runner-up to Sandy Alderson for the Mets job after last season. Cubs chairman Tom Ricketts said he would consider assistant general managers for the position. Ricketts emphasized player development skills, a winning track record and knowledge of things such as sabermetrics as criteria for the job. ESPNChicago.com's Bruce Levine contributed to this report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgrad70 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Aug 17, 2011 -> 03:32 PM) Survey SAYS: DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!!!! That's exactly what it is. That's the hallmark of Reinsdorf's tenure as owner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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