Get Lillibridge Games at Short

[caulfield12]

Yeah, it's $2.75 million. But still peanuts, comparatively.

 

 

 

signed extension with White Sox 2/3/11

12:$5M, 13:$7M, 14:$9.5M, 15:$10M, 16:$10M club option ($1M buyout)

4 years/$4.75M (2008-11)

 

signed by White Sox 12/21/07 as a free agent from Cuba (via the Dominican Republic)

$0.5M signing bonus

08:$0.95M, 09:$1.1M, 10:$1.1M, 11:$1.1M

if otherwise eligible for arbitration, Ramirez may opt out of 2011 salary by 12/1/10

if Ramirez opts out, White Sox may exercise $2.75M option for 2011 or go through arbitration with Ramirez (Ramirez opted out and White Sox exercised $2.75M option 12/2/10)

Edited August 22, 2011 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Lillibridge coming into this year against RHP was at .175 average with 501 OPS (177 AB's).

 

Now maybe the greatest Walker miracle since Jesus Walking on Water or Lazarus was raised from the dead has happened...

 

.244 with 801 OPS (82 AB's) in 2011.

 

Can anyone confidently predict that he would put up even a 700-ish OPS against ALL RHP in everyday play?

 

Ozzie is very very selective about who he lets Lillibridge go up against, in order to protect him. Has done the same with Morel and Viciedo last year.

 

 

 

 

[Marty34]

Lillibridge coming into this year against RHP was at .175 average with 501 OPS (177 AB's).

 

Now maybe the greatest Walker miracle since Jesus Walking on Water or Lazarus was raised from the dead has happened...

 

.244 with 801 OPS (82 AB's) in 2011.

 

Can anyone confidently predict that he would put up even a 700-ish OPS against ALL RHP in everyday play?

 

Ozzie is very very selective about who he lets Lillibridge go up against, in order to protect him. Has done the same with Morel and Viciedo last year.

 

You have to bite the bullet somewhere because of the Rios/Dunn/Peavy contracts. I maintain that it's best to do it with Ramirez because you can get something in return for him and he's not young enough, cheap enough, or frankly good enough to build a team around for the next three years.

 

Getting rid of Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and Thornton would bring an influx of talent in hopefully. It would also put the payroll at $79.25M which allows for Buehrle to be resigned and $15-20M to fill in holes.

[Balta1701]

Getting rid of Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and Thornton would bring an influx of talent in hopefully. It would also put the payroll at $79.25M which allows for Buehrle to be resigned and $15-20M to fill in holes.

That's way more than Mark Buehrle would get in a competitive market bidding. And a ton more than he'd get if he limited himself to a couple teams.

[southsider2k5]

It's clear to me that you don't understand the game or the position the Sox are in. I wish the Sox were in a position to keep their 30 y.o. shortstop. They're a .500 team with few tradable players.

 

Why aren't the Sox in a position to pay their Top 4 SS $5 million, yet in a position to pay their 33 year old Top 50 pitcher probably about three times that next year?

[Marty34]

That's way more than Mark Buehrle would get in a competitive market bidding. And a ton more than he'd get if he limited himself to a couple teams.

 

I was putting Buehrle arount $10M-$12M a year with a total payroll around $105-$110M.

 

[Marty34]

Why aren't the Sox in a position to pay their Top 4 SS $5 million, yet in a position to pay their 33 year old Top 50 pitcher probably about three times that next year?

 

Because Kenny "The Genius" Williams has saddled them with three incredibly bad contracts.

 

[southsider2k5]

Because Kenny "The Genius" Williams has saddled them with three incredibly bad contracts.

 

Which means Buehrle should be more likely to go, not less. If you are going to pull the payroll card, you lose. If you are going to pull the age card, you lose. If you are going to pull their overall ranking card, you lose.

[caulfield12]

You have to bite the bullet somewhere because of the Rios/Dunn/Peavy contracts. I maintain that it's best to do it with Ramirez because you can get something in return for him and he's not young enough, cheap enough, or frankly good enough to build a team around for the next three years.

 

Getting rid of Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and Thornton would bring an influx of talent in hopefully. It would also put the payroll at $79.25M which allows for Buehrle to be resigned and $15-20M to fill in holes.

 

 

Ramirez and Thornton will be at $10.5 million next year (Thornton going from $3 to $5.5 million so basically very little in return at that price, his age, and with one pitch). You can estimate Quentin/Danks at $17-18 million combined.

 

I don't see where you're getting another $20 million in savings, though. Pierre/Teahen/Jackson/Linebrink/Vizquel/Castro/Pena....

 

 

+1 mill Peavy

+2 mill Dunn

+2 mill Floyd

+0.5 Crain

+3.75 Frasor

+4.00 AJ

+1.00 Ohman

+??? Humber increase

Beckham, Santos, Sale, Lillibridge, Morel

 

Won't Beckham be eligible for arbitration for next year? Or 2013?

 

At any rate, very conservatively, you're adding $16-19 million dollars right there in increases. And you still have to replace the salaries of Pierre (DeAza/Milledge), Teahen (Kuhn/Lillibridge), Jackson (Stewart), Vizquel (Kuhn/Lillibridge), Castro (Flowers) and Pena (minor leaguer).

 

So essentially you're cutting just Quentin/Thornton/Danks/Ramirez and the rest zeroes itself out with increases and low cost replacements.

 

So let's say we're at $100 million. Add in Buehrle, we're still back at $110-115 range.

 

And the ONLY way we add payroll AT THAT POINT is for bringing back BUEHRLE.

 

Otherwise, we tear everything apart just to get to $95-105....and Konerko becomes almost superfluous.

 

With all that restructuring done (unless KW actually hit on all four of those trades with young, talented, major league ready players), it would be more logical to play Tyler Flowers at 1B for one season just to save MORE money, if you can't deal AJ or don't want to eat more money.

 

You can argue we won't keep Frasor or won't offer arbitration....but that's still not going to make a big difference in the overall payroll picture.

Edited August 22, 2011 by caulfield12

[RockRaines]

Which means Buehrle should be more likely to go, not less. If you are going to pull the payroll card, you lose. If you are going to pull the age card, you lose. If you are going to pull their overall ranking card, you lose.

Stop bringing logic into Marty's threads, they have no place here.

 

The Sox are dealing Quentin and most likely a starter in the offseason at minimum. Alexei is 100% not one of those players.

[Marty34]

Which means Buehrle should be more likely to go, not less. If you are going to pull the payroll card, you lose. If you are going to pull the age card, you lose. If you are going to pull their overall ranking card, you lose.

 

If Buehrle goes it's a total rebuild.

 

[southsider2k5]

If Buehrle goes it's a total rebuild.

 

If Buerhle goes, it is a product of payroll. If Alexei goes it is a total rebuild. Outside of someone like Steward, Santos or Sale, Alexei about the last person that would leave the Sox, even in a significant meltdown of the team.

[caulfield12]

Which means Buehrle should be more likely to go, not less. If you are going to pull the payroll card, you lose. If you are going to pull the age card, you lose. If you are going to pull their overall ranking card, you lose.

 

I think his whole argument is based on the "value added/plus" benefit of still having Buehrle and Konerko around for the remaining fans and season ticket holders.

 

Their presence alone doesn't justify their costs if the rest of the team is looking like a 70-80 win model.

 

Without Buehrle....Konerko then becomes less and less of a draw, because that team (with Buehrle and Danks both gone) is very unlikely to be competitive in the division race.

 

The only way is if Chris Sale or Jake Peavy won the 2012 American League Cy Young/MVP and Comeback Player of the Year awards.

[caulfield12]

If Buerhle goes, it is a product of payroll. If Alexei goes it is a total rebuild. Outside of someone like Steward, Santos or Sale, Alexei about the last person that would leave the Sox, even in a significant meltdown of the team.

 

And Mr. Dayan Viciedo.

[Marty34]

Ramirez and Thornton will be at $10.5 million next year (Thornton going from $3 to $5.5 million so basically very little in return at that price, his age, and with one pitch). You can estimate Quentin/Danks at $17-18 million combined.

 

I don't see where you're getting another $20 million in savings, though. Pierre/Teahen/Jackson/Linebrink/Vizquel/Castro/Pena...

 

Cotts has them at $89.25 as of now, without Ramirez and Thornton it goes down $78.75M

 

LF De Aza

CF Rios

RF Viciedo

3B Morel

SS Lillibridge

2B Beckham

1B Konerko

C AJP

DH Dunn

 

Signing Buehrle for $12M per say puts them at $91M

 

SP Buehrle

SP Floyd

SP Sale

SP Peavy

SP Stewart/Humber

 

RP Santos

RP Crain

RP Reed

RP Ohman

RP Santiago

RP Humber/Stewart

 

Obviously holes, some of which should be filled with talent received in return for Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and Thornton. But at $91M you can take on $15M in salary while chopping $20M from 2011.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Cotts has them at $89.25 as of now, without Ramirez and Thornton it goes down $78.75M

 

LF De Aza

CF Rios

RF Viciedo

3B Morel

SS Lillibridge

2B Beckham

1B Konerko

C AJP

DH Dunn

 

Signing Buehrle for $12M per say puts them at $91M

 

SP Buehrle

SP Floyd

SP Sale

SP Peavy

SP Stewart/Humber

 

RP Santos

RP Crain

RP Reed

RP Ohman

RP Santiago

RP Humber/Stewart

 

Obviously holes, some of which should be filled with talent received in return for Danks, Quentin, Ramirez, and Thornton. But at $91M you can take on $15M in salary while chopping $20M from 2011.

 

 

Is this some new type of software?

 

Kalapse's is the only one that is accurate on a year-by-year future outlay basis.

 

I think you're just adding and subtracting from 2011. That won't work...because of all the built-in salary increases (that I outlined above) and the up-in-the-air addition of Jason Frasor.

 

 

[Marty34]

Is this some new type of software?

 

Kalapse's is the only one that is accurate on a year-by-year future outlay basis.

 

I think you're just adding and subtracting from 2011. That won't work...because of all the built-in salary increases (that I outlined above) and the up-in-the-air addition of Jason Frasor.

 

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tK7...amp;output=html

[southsider2k5]

Is this some new type of software?

 

Kalapse's is the only one that is accurate on a year-by-year future outlay basis.

 

I think you're just adding and subtracting from 2011. That won't work...because of all the built-in salary increases (that I outlined above) and the up-in-the-air addition of Jason Frasor.

 

Apparently the guys he doesn't like get their raises, and the guys he likes are willing to take paycuts.

[Balta1701]

Actually his numbers for 2011 are pretty close, because he's subtracted Quentin, Danks, Ramirez, and Thornton, and that's nearly $30 million between them.

 

He's missing about $5-7 million from minimum contract guys and the $3.5 mil for Frasor.

[caulfield12]

It still doesn't include Frasor. KW's history indicates he has almost always held onto acquired players to justify the trade return. One of the few I can actually remember him letting go was David Riske.

 

Then the bigger increases for Humber and Beckham.

 

Vizquel, Pena, Castro all need to be replaced....DeAza and/or Milledge, minor league reliever and Flowers, possibly Tyler Kuhn depending on how they use Lillibridge

 

Santos, Lillibridge, Sale and Morel aren't accounted for.

 

That could be something like $7.5-12.5 million (especially with Frasor, since he would be at $3.75 alone).

 

No matter what you do, you're still looking at around $100-105 million with Buehrle.

 

None of the savings will be plugged into added payroll in all likelihood. And there's zero veteran presence on the bench going that way. If Ozzie's around, not sure how much he'll like that.

 

 

[Balta1701]

It still doesn't include Frasor. KW's history indicates he has almost always held onto acquired players to justify the trade return. One of the few I can actually remember him letting go was David Riske.

 

Then the bigger increases for Humber and Beckham.

 

Vizquel, Pena, Castro all need to be replaced....DeAza and/or Milledge, minor league reliever and Flowers, possibly Tyler Kuhn depending on how they use Lillibridge

 

Santos, Lillibridge, Sale and Morel aren't accounted for.

 

That could be something like $7.5-12.5 million (especially with Frasor, since he would be at $3.75 alone).

 

No matter what you do, you're still looking at around $100-105 million with Buehrle.

 

None of the savings will be plugged into added payroll in all likelihood. And there's zero veteran presence on the bench going that way. If Ozzie's around, not sure how much he'll like that.

Caulfireld, almost everyone you mention there except Frasor is a minimum contract guy.

 

He gets himself to legitimately $95 million if he signs buehrle but trades away the 4 he wants to move.

[caulfield12]

Actually his numbers for 2011 are pretty close, because he's subtracted Quentin, Danks, Ramirez, and Thornton, and that's nearly $30 million between them.

 

He's missing about $5-7 million from minimum contract guys and the $3.5 mil for Frasor.

 

 

Yeah, I figured it out (see above).

 

Can the White Sox decline Frasor's option and still offer arbitration? Not saying they would do that, but could they?

 

Or is it all or nothing, accept or decline the $3.75 million club option. He stays or becomes a FA? He's Type B?

 

But I still don't see how they sell letting Danks and Ramirez go to the fanbase and claiming to be "All In" still...

 

They can't. Impossible. Even if KW/Hahn pulled off a Sizemore/Lee/Phillips haul, it wouldn't be until 2013-2014 that some of the fans started to come back on board.

Edited August 22, 2011 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Caulfireld, almost everyone you mention there except Frasor is a minimum contract guy.

 

He gets himself to legitimately $95 million if he signs buehrle but trades away the 4 he wants to move.

 

 

But aren't Beckham and Humber different situations? Free Agent: 2012 / Unrestricted....that's not right for Humber, but what exactly will happen? He will have 2+ years of service, they can't just offer him what amounts to a minimum contract after his 2011 season, can they? Only $750,000?

 

Is Gordon eligible for salary arbitration for 2012?

Edited August 22, 2011 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Yeah, I figured it out (see above).

 

Can the White Sox decline Frasor's option and still offer arbitration? Not saying they would do that, but could they?

 

Or is it all or nothing, accept or decline the $3.75 million club option. He stays or becomes a FA? He's Type B?

 

But I still don't see how they sell letting Danks and Ramirez go to the fanbase and claiming to be "All In" still...

 

They can't. Impossible. Even if KW/Hahn pulled off a Sizemore/Lee/Phillips haul, it wouldn't be until 2013-2014 that some of the fans started to come back on board.

Yes, the Sox can decline his option and offer him arbitration.

[Balta1701]

But aren't Beckham and Humber different situations?

 

Is Gordon eligible for salary arbitration for 2012?

No. Both of them are still pre-arb. This happens for Beckham because we waited until after June 1 to call him up in 2009, so he stays Pre-Arb for 1 more year.