Marty34 Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 23, 2011 -> 07:29 PM) So people want Sale in the rotation and Thornton on another team. If you want Sale in the rotation Thornton has to stay. If you want Thornton gone, you better find another decent lefty for the bullpen or it will be a long year next year. You're overvaluing Thornton's 60 innings pitched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 23, 2011 -> 07:45 PM) You're overvaluing Thornton's 60 innings pitched. And you are undervaluing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 23, 2011 -> 07:45 PM) You're overvaluing Thornton's 60 innings pitched. You are letting 1 month of bad performance affect your view of him. That is 1 month in the past 22 months of baseball. Matt Thornton is good. He is worth $6 million to this team and to several other teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Assuming Sale is moved to the rotation - he absolutely needs to be given a shot - the Sox currently have a couple of left handed pitchers in the minors who would make interesting 3rd lefties out of the pen. Whisler is apparently coming from a submarine arm slot now which could make him a very dangerous weapon against good lefties. And Santiago, from the couple of times I saw him pitch, looks like he could make it out of the pen too. Trading Thornton also leaves a mess afterwards. If traded, you need to have two of Sale, Buehrle, and Danks in the rotation (and yes, I'm aware that Buehrle would need to be resigned). If you keep Buehrle and Danks, you are actually spending anywhere between $12-17 million MORE than with Thornton on the roster AND lose out on the prospects that would be acquired for Danks, so that does not seem likely. If you keep Danks and Sale, you only spend about $3-5 million more, but you still lose out on the prospects acquired for Danks as well as needing to find a replacement in the pen for Sale. If you keep Buehrle and Sale, you are spending about the same as Danks, perhaps slightly more, do get the prospects for Danks, but still need to find a replacement for Thornton. Quite frankly, trading Thornton is not only a bad baseball decision, it's a bad financial decision. The only way they should even consider it is if they want to blow the whole thing up, and with as many pieces as there are coming back, they may as well give a half-assed effort to give this group of players one more shot under different management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 23, 2011 -> 08:38 PM) You are letting 1 month of bad performance affect your view of him. That is 1 month in the past 22 months of baseball. Matt Thornton is good. He is worth $6 million to this team and to several other teams. There's alot more than that influencing his views on alot of topics. Thornton will be shopped to teams that covet him this offseason. If they arent good offers he's worth more to the Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 23, 2011 -> 07:45 PM) You're overvaluing Thornton's 60 innings pitched. No, he's still one of the best in the league. Dumping him basically to save money, and not getting back value would be a huge mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Aug 23, 2011 -> 08:51 PM) Quite frankly, trading Thornton is not only a bad baseball decision, it's a bad financial decision. The only way they should even consider it is if they want to blow the whole thing up, and with as many pieces as there are coming back, they may as well give a half-assed effort to give this group of players one more shot under different management. Thornton's a left-handed setup guy who will give you 60 IP. I'll take my chances with those 60 innings being pitched by Reed/Santiago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 09:25 AM) Thornton's a left-handed setup guy who will give you 60 IP. I'll take my chances with those 60 innings being pitched by Reed/Santiago. In exchange for saving a whopping $5 million, less than 4% of this team's total payroll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted August 24, 2011 Author Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 08:29 AM) In exchange for saving a whopping $5 million, less than 4% of this team's total payroll? $10M savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 08:33 AM) $10M savings. less than 4% of the team's payroll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 08:33 AM) $10M savings. $12 million over the last two seasons, or about $14 million if you want include this year. Again, that is still not that much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 08:25 AM) Thornton's a left-handed setup guy who will give you 60 IP. I'll take my chances with those 60 innings being pitched by Reed/Santiago. KW tried that approach in 2007, it not only didn't work it wound up costing him even more money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Yep, the Dotel and Linebrink overpays. And a lot of missed opportunities as half the "new" White Sox fans from 2005-06-07 disappeared back into the woodwork. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 07:26 PM) KW tried that approach in 2007, it not only didn't work it wound up costing him even more money. Perfect example right there. Remember all of those great arms we had in Mike MacDougal, Andy Sisco, David Aardsma and company? Damn, there went my appetite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 09:18 AM) Perfect example right there. Remember all of those great arms we had in Mike MacDougal, Andy Sisco, David Aardsma and company? Damn, there went my appetite. The best part was how excited we all were for this "flame-throwing" bullpen when it turned out they just threw hard nowhere close to the strike zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 09:28 AM) The best part was how excited we all were for this "flame-throwing" bullpen when it turned out they just threw hard nowhere close to the strike zone. Nasty boys indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 07:26 PM) KW tried that approach in 2007, it not only didn't work it wound up costing him even more money. Next year it will be Crain in the 7th, Reed in the 8th, Santos in the 9th. The bullpen won't suffer without Thornton. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Zelig Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 24, 2011 -> 08:29 AM) In exchange for saving a whopping $5 million, less than 4% of this team's total payroll? The other day you said that Alexei wasn't cheap, but he is making less than Thornton next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Don't forget our old "flame-throwing" pal Nick Masset. Although with Cooper, he was usually at 92-93 MPH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 10:39 AM) Next year it will be Crain in the 7th, Reed in the 8th, Santos in the 9th. The bullpen won't suffer without Thornton. An unproven rookie who has never pitched in the big leagues is promoted over Frasor and Crain already? Obviously you're not planning on Ozzie being back, because that could never happen on his watch. And that same manager who has two of the best lefties in Sale and Thorton will suddenly be "just fine" with only Ohman and Santiago? Ummm...okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 12:12 PM) An unproven rookie who has never pitched in the big leagues is promoted over Frasor and Crain already? One thing Ozzie does show is some flexibility in who he employs in the bullpen. Thornton didn't last long in the closer's role. Sale caught his groove and suddenly became one of Ozzie's favorite toys. Santos was pitching well and took a couple weeks before he was closing. He does crazy things like insisting that will ohman can get righties out. But if a guy is coming in and killing, he'll be an 8th inning guy pretty quick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 12:01 PM) The other day you said that Alexei wasn't cheap, but he is making less than Thornton next year. There's a whole lot more total money on Alexei's deal. Neither of these guys are cheap. But neither of them should be moved without a solid return for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 11:38 AM) There's a whole lot more total money on Alexei's deal. Neither of these guys are cheap. But neither of them should be moved without a solid return for them. Alexei is one of the top 5 SS's in baseball right now, and any deal for him should reflect that. Otherwise it should be laughed out of existence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Unless you have believe he's actually 32-34 and not the age that's stated on his birth certificate. Then, in that case, signing that extension would have made a LOT less sense going forward. Edited August 25, 2011 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 25, 2011 -> 12:14 PM) Unless you have believe he's actually 32-34 and not the age that's stated on his birth certificate. Then, in that case, signing that extension would have made a LOT less sense going forward. Ya no, I dont think anyone has ever doubted his age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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