IF the Sox come back and finish only 1 or 2 games out,

[balfanman]

Let's say that the Sox get hot riding Viciedos' hot bat, Detroit cools off a bit, and the Sox finish only 1 or 2 games out of first. I would be soooo ticked off at O.G. & K.W. for letting their personal agendas get in the way of the team. It would be my personal opinion that Ozzie & Kenny should both be fired immediately after the season and should never, ever have a job in baseball again for being selfish enough to destroy a teams season with their egos.

 

Maybe I'm just venting, and I know it's a small sample size, but jeez.

[greg775]

Let's say that the Sox get hot riding Viciedos' hot bat, Detroit cools off a bit, and the Sox finish only 1 or 2 games out of first. I would be soooo ticked off at O.G. & K.W. for letting their personal agendas get in the way of the team. It would be my personal opinion that Ozzie & Kenny should both be fired immediately after the season and should never, ever have a job in baseball again for being selfish enough to destroy a teams season with their egos.

 

Maybe I'm just venting, and I know it's a small sample size, but jeez.

 

I'd be mad at that as well. But madder at all the games we pissed away in April/May, you know the ones when we were losing games in droves with nobody able to stop the runaway 'L' train. Hopefully the new skipper will be able to fire up the troops out of the gate next year.

Edited August 28, 2011 by greg775

[Jake]

I get the sense that in a given year 15-20 teams' fans feel this way about one or both of their Manager/GM.

[thedoctor]

if that happens, i'll probably first think about bruce chen owning us.

[Greg Hibbard]

That 4-18 stretch is the first thing that will come to mind.

 

If they finish 1-2 games out it would be hard to imagine them having a much better record from May on given their overall talent, although I'm sure many here will cherry pick losses.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[Wanne]

Let's say that the Sox get hot riding Viciedos' hot bat, Detroit cools off a bit, and the Sox finish only 1 or 2 games out of first. I would be soooo ticked off at O.G. & K.W. for letting their personal agendas get in the way of the team. It would be my personal opinion that Ozzie & Kenny should both be fired immediately after the season

 

This part would/should happen

 

 

and should never, ever have a job in baseball again for being selfish enough to destroy a teams season with their egos.

 

Maybe I'm just venting, and I know it's a small sample size, but jeez.

 

You know this won't be the case. I don't really care where they go...as long as it's out of Chicago.

[Buehrlesque]

Let's say that the Sox get hot riding Viciedos' hot bat, Detroit cools off a bit, and the Sox finish only 1 or 2 games out of first. I would be soooo ticked off at O.G. & K.W. for letting their personal agendas get in the way of the team. It would be my personal opinion that Ozzie & Kenny should both be fired immediately after the season and should never, ever have a job in baseball again for being selfish enough to destroy a teams season with their egos.

 

Maybe I'm just venting, and I know it's a small sample size, but jeez.

I'd say the bigger concern if that happened is the organization would be so pleased with the way the team fought hard and finished the season that they [would bring Guillen and Williams back. That is the true doomsday scenario.

[Wanne]

I'd say the bigger concern if that happened is the organization would be so pleased with the way the team fought hard and finished the season that they [would bring Guillen and Williams back. That is the true doomsday scenario.

 

that's happened so many times already...and I don't expect next year to be any different.

[WilliamTell]

I get the sense that in a given year 15-20 teams' fans feel this way about one or both of their Manager/GM.

 

I agree

[balfanman]

I get the sense that in a given year 15-20 teams' fans feel this way about one or both of their Manager/GM.

 

But how many of those teams had options at their fingertips that they dogmatically failed to utilize. It's not just Viciedo either. DeAza should have been up much sooner, Dunn & Rios on the bench much more often than they were, etc. Our G.M. & Manager flat out lied to us about being all in with their actions.

[balfanman]

That 4-18 stretch is the first thing that will come to mind.

 

If they finish 1-2 games out it would be hard to imagine them having a much better record from May on given their overall talent, although I'm sure many here will cherry pick losses.

 

But I'm sure that between Rios & Dunn there were very easily 1 or 2 games we would have won if DeAza, Lillibridge, or Viciedo were getting at bats instead of having an uninspiring 0 for 4.

[Lillian]

But I'm sure that between Rios & Dunn there were very easily 1 or 2 games we would have won if DeAza, Lillibridge, or Viciedo were getting at bats instead of having an uninspiring 0 for 4.

 

There is no question that the Sox would have won several games with almost anyone playing in place of Rios, and especially Dunn. Take all of the losses by a run or two, and we had to have won many of those games with anyone putting up just average Major League offensive production. The black hole that Dunn represented, right in the heart of the order, was damaging in several ways. Not only did he fail to produce, but he robbed the middle of the order of a "presence" which could have protected the hitter in front of him.

It was clear, very early on that he was not a hitter to be feared. That meant that no opposing manager ever had to worry about match ups. He was the only significant left handed bat in the lineup, and most teams knew that he was an "automatic" out.

[chisoxfan09]

There is no question that the Sox would have won several games with almost anyone playing in place of Rios, and especially Dunn. Take all of the losses by a run or two, and we had to have won many of those games with anyone putting up just average Major League offensive production. The black hole that Dunn represented, right in the heart of the order, was damaging in several ways. Not only did he fail to produce, but he robbed the middle of the order of a "presence" which could have protected the hitter in front of him.

It was clear, very early on that he was not a hitter to be feared. That meant that no opposing manager ever had to worry about match ups. He was the only significant left handed bat in the lineup, and most teams knew that he was an "automatic" out.

 

That right there, is absolutely inexcusable by Ozzie. His stubbornness really cost us this year in more ways than one. And yet he just keeps coming to work and shooting his mouth off. Wow, just wow.

[DrunkBomber]

Its always easy to second guess your favorite teams management but sometimes there are situations where something that seems so obvious to even the fans that it truly is amazing that people who are paid professionals seemingly miss the boat.

 

Im not going to argue that the majority of the fan base had been clamoring for De Aza or Flowers. There may have been some people who wanted to see those guys called up but it certainly wasnt a situation like replacing Dunn with Viciedo at some point earlier in the season. Despite what he is being paid Dunn has been destroying our offense all season. Who knows how many games could have been won with another competent bat in the line up instead of someone batting around .160 who strikes out nearly half of his at bats. We had a promising hitter in the minors all season and continued to use Dunn in or around the middle of our lineup everyday.

 

This isnt some advanced baseball knowledge that only extreme students of the game can figure out, this is common sense that any reasonable person could come up with. Its comparable to how the Bears needed to improve their offensive line after last season. Some situations in sports should be painfully obvious to everyone, whether it be casual fan or management of a professional team.

Edited August 29, 2011 by DrunkBomber

[southsider2k5]

I get the sense that in a given year 15-20 teams' fans feel this way about one or both of their Manager/GM.

 

that number is probably low actually. You ever hear that about the top teams managers.

[ILMOU]

Its always easy to second guess your favorite teams management but sometimes there are situations where something that seems so obvious to even the fans that it truly is amazing that people who are paid professionals seemingly miss the boat.

 

Im not going to argue that the majority of the fan base had been clamoring for De Aza or Flowers. There may have been some people who wanted to see those guys called up but it certainly wasnt a situation like replacing Dunn with Viciedo at some point earlier in the season. Despite what he is being paid Dunn has been destroying our offense all season. Who knows how many games could have been won with another competent bat in the line up instead of someone batting around .160 who strikes out nearly half of his at bats. We had a promising hitter in the minors all season and continued to use Dunn in or around the middle of our lineup everyday.

 

This isnt some advanced baseball knowledge that only extreme students of the game can figure out, this is common sense that any reasonable person could come up with. Its comparable to how the Bears needed to improve their offensive line after last season. Some situations in sports should be painfully obvious to everyone, whether it be casual fan or management of a professional team.

 

Great post, Bomber.

[Greg Hibbard]

But I'm sure that between Rios & Dunn there were very easily 1 or 2 games we would have won if DeAza, Lillibridge, or Viciedo were getting at bats instead of having an uninspiring 0 for 4.

 

Many people had the Sox at a 93-95 win pace going into this season.

 

They've been on a 91-win pace (percentage-wise) since May 6th. I guess Dunn and Rios cost them some games, yes. However, there are bad losses for every team in every season, even the most talented and successful ones.

 

If Detroit had won 98 games in 2011, and the Sox won 95 and missed the playoffs, I wonder what the reaction would have been.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[Greg Hibbard]

I guess the interesting aspect of fan reaction since May has been this: there's seemingly absolutely no room for losing any series at any time.

 

In most people eye's, we should be winning at least 2/3 or 3/4 of each and every home series. We should be beating the bad teams on the road, every single time. We should be splitting all of our road trips.

 

Look around baseball. Look at other seasons for other successful teams. Do you see them doing these things at all times? Of course not. The best teams of all time still only win about 60% of their games. Many playoff teams get away with merely winning 57 or 58% of their games. This means they take bad game and series losses at many points throughout every season.

 

Let's talk about Detroit for a second, the very team we are chasing. Just before their recent 8/10 surge, they lost a home series to a bad Minnesota team. The week before that, they lost a game to a certain Kansas City pitcher named Chen. They split a two game home series to Oakland earlier in the second half. They can't seemingly beat the White Sox in a series recently to save their life, a team behind them that they need to be beating. This just goes back to the All-Star break. Totally unacceptable, am I right?

 

I suppose many will look back on individual at bats, and pitching performances and components to this team and want to blame those things for the 2011 season. I blame one thing - a horrid 4-18 stretch that was something the team simply could not recover from. Since May 6th, they've won about exactly as many games as I would have expected them to - 56% of them. A clip about equivalent to a playoff caliber team.

 

It's too bad that 22 games spelled the almost certain doom of this season.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[Lillian]

The fact is that the Sox are 5TH in the League in ERA, but near last in baseball in runs scored.

With any kind of average production from Rios and Dunn, there is little doubt that this team would be considerably better than one game above .500.

 

I don't care what the record was early, or what it has been since. The reality is that these two players, making big money, hitting in, or near, the heart of the order, have been unbelievably bad. I understand that management was reluctant to bench high priced players with good career numbers, but they waited much too long to make changes, when there were other options available in the organization. Both de Aza and Viciedo were putting up great numbers at AAA.

 

There was no accountability regarding the players, and now there seems to be no accountability for management, in the eyes of those who have no problem with the way this situation was handled. For my part, I wouldn't spend a dime on tickets to watch this fiasco. That's my way of holding the organization accountable.

[Greg Hibbard]

The fact is that the Sox are 5TH in the League in ERA, but near last in baseball in runs scored.

With any kind of average production from Rios and Dunn, there is little doubt that this team would be considerably better than one game above .500.

 

I don't care what the record was early, or what it has been since. The reality is that these two players, making big money, hitting in, or near, the heart of the order, have been unbelievably bad. I understand that management was reluctant to bench high priced players with good career numbers, but they waited much too long to make changes, when there were other options available in the organization. Both de Aza and Viciedo were putting up great numbers at AAA.

 

There was no accountability regarding the players, and now there seems to be no accountability for management, in the eyes of those who have no problem with the way this situation was handled. For my part, I wouldn't spend a dime on tickets to watch this fiasco. That's my way of holding the organization accountable.

 

I like the way people consistently want to keep everything good about this team exactly the way that it is, and fix just Dunn and Rios. It would be nice if baseball was that cut and dried.

 

Every year, every team has 1-2 players who struggle beyond our wildest expectations. In 2001, it was David Wells and Royce Clayton. In 2002, it was Todd Ritchie and his 5-15 record. In 2003, it was Paul Konerko and his impossibly low .230 average that was even worse than that for most of the year. In 2004, it was Joe Crede hitting .239. The list goes on from there.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Greg Hibbard

[BigSqwert]

I like the way people consistently want to keep everything good about this team exactly the way that it is, and just fix just Dunn and Rios. It would be nice if baseball was that cut and dried.

 

Every year, every team has 1-2 players who struggle beyond our wildest expectations. In 2001, it was David Wells and Royce Clayton. In 2002, it was Todd Ritchie and his 5-15 record. In 2003, it was Paul Konerko and his impossibly low .230 average that was even worse than that for most of the year. In 2004, it was Joe Crede hitting .239. The list goes on from there.

 

 

Again, we had options this year to lessen the blow (i.e., start batting Dunn lower in the lineup, bring up De Aza & Viciedo, etc.)

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Again, we had options this year to lessen the blow (i.e., start batting Dunn lower in the lineup, bring up De Aza & Viciedo, etc.)

 

That's the most frustrating part. Not that we had players performing well under expectations, because that can happen to any team for no apparent reason, but that we had the pieces and options to attempt to do something about it and better ourselves and seemingly just played ignorant and chose not to.

[Greg Hibbard]

Again, we had options this year to lessen the blow (i.e., start batting Dunn lower in the lineup, bring up De Aza & Viciedo, etc.)

 

And those things, of course, magically translate into instant wins.

[BigSqwert]

And those things, of course, magically translate into instant wins.

 

Optimizing starting lineups and batting order usually increases your chances of winning. That's baseball 101 in case you're just starting to follow the game.

[Greg Hibbard]

Optimizing starting lineups and batting order usually increases your chances of winning. That's baseball 101 in case you're just starting to follow the game.

 

You don't think it's revisionist to assume that De Aza and Viciedo would have necessarily had a positive impact in our lineup at any time you wanted to insert them?

 

You don't think it's also revisionist to assume that moving another player up in the order would have only had a positive effect?

 

My point was that this team is 12 over .500 over its last 98 games. Not good enough for most, I realize, but I couldn't have imagined them realistically winning too many more games than 55 out of 98.

 

It's also possible that more time in the minors actually led to De Aza and Viciedo being more prepared for the majors, hence translating into their recent production.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Greg Hibbard