IF the Sox come back and finish only 1 or 2 games out,

[Greg Hibbard]

Let me be clear: I'm not rationalizing away the decisions that were made or excusing accountability. I think this organization was presented with a very bad set of choices this season and that it made some poor decisions when presented with those choices.

 

However, the greatest impact on the season seems to be the 4-18 stretch that put us 11 games out and in last place, perpetually crawling back at a snail's pace. How much of Ozzie and Kenny was that stretch? In my mind it was the bullpen problems for most games, a little Pierre and a little Dunn and Rios.

[SI1020]

I like the way people consistently want to keep everything good about this team exactly the way that it is, and fix just Dunn and Rios. It would be nice if baseball was that cut and dried.

 

Every year, every team has 1-2 players who struggle beyond our wildest expectations. In 2001, it was David Wells and Royce Clayton. In 2002, it was Todd Ritchie and his 5-15 record. In 2003, it was Paul Konerko and his impossibly low .230 average that was even worse than that for most of the year. In 2004, it was Joe Crede hitting .239. The list goes on from there.

Outside of Steve Blass, who was a pitcher, I've never seen or been aware of a productive player falling as far and fast as Adam Dunn. Rios, while not quite as abysmal as Dunn, allowed his struggles at the plate to affect his fielding, which had been a strong point for him. The failures of these two guys is epic.

 

 

[elrockinMT]

If you finish a game or two out after you make a late run at it I think it would be easy to satrt cherry picking and second guessing everything trhat we didn't think was done right. We dug ahole early by going 11-22. That was it IMO

[Greg Hibbard]

Outside of Steve Blass, who was a pitcher, I've never seen or been aware of a productive player falling as far and fast as Adam Dunn. Rios, while not quite as abysmal as Dunn, allowed his struggles at the plate to affect his fielding, which had been a strong point for him. The failures of these two guys is epic.

 

Who was the St. Louis pitcher who lost it and ended up in the outfield after reconfiguring his game?

[BigSqwert]

Who was the St. Louis pitcher who lost it and ended up in the outfield after reconfiguring his game?

Ankiel?

[SI1020]

Who was the St. Louis pitcher who lost it and ended up in the outfield after reconfiguring his game?

Are you referring to this guy?

 

[Lillian]

You don't think it's revisionist to assume that De Aza and Viciedo would have necessarily had a positive impact in our lineup at any time you wanted to insert them?

 

You don't think it's also revisionist to assume that moving another player up in the order would have only had a positive effect?

 

My point was that this team is 12 over .500 over its last 98 games. Not good enough for most, I realize, but I couldn't have imagined them realistically winning too many more games than 55 out of 98.

 

It's also possible that more time in the minors actually led to De Aza and Viciedo being more prepared for the majors, hence translating into their recent production.

 

Perhaps you are missing a couple of points. First, if the team is 12 over .500 in the last 98 games, what do you suppose the record would be if it hadn't had the worst hitter in the history of baseball hitting in the middle of the order, for most of those games?

 

Second, it's about accountability. Is a player assured of playing time, no matter how badly he performs, just because his team made the mistake of overpaying him?

Is management given a pass simply because the player didn't perform, and therefore there is nothing that they are expected to do to cope with the situation?

[Chicago White Sox]

Again, we had options this year to lessen the blow (i.e., start batting Dunn lower in the lineup, bring up De Aza & Viciedo, etc.)

Exactly. There is no excuse for Dunn batting 4th once it could be dermined that something was significantly wrong with him. I don't blame Ozzie for giving the guy an extended opportunity to come out of his slump, but at some point he should have moved him down the lineup. Him batting 4th, given other offensive struggles, totally killed our lineup. That's 100% on Ozzie and it could very well cost us the division in the end.

 

Additionally, there's no excuse whatsoever for not calling Viciedo up earlier this season. Our offense has been struggling all year and he would have most likely been our third best hitter on arrival. Again, you had to give Dunn an opportunity to bounce back, but by the all-star break is was clear he most likely was unfixable this year. Viciedo could have slid in DH most of time and spelled Quentin/Pierre once or twice a week. This is 100% on KW. He's in charge of the roster and should have forced Guillen's hand. If we lose this division by a game or two, Viciedo over Dunn from July forward probably would have made up that difference.

[Chicago White Sox]

Let me be clear: I'm not rationalizing away the decisions that were made or excusing accountability. I think this organization was presented with a very bad set of choices this season and that it made some poor decisions when presented with those choices.

 

However, the greatest impact on the season seems to be the 4-18 stretch that put us 11 games out and in last place, perpetually crawling back at a snail's pace. How much of Ozzie and Kenny was that stretch? In my mind it was the bullpen problems for most games, a little Pierre and a little Dunn and Rios.

There's never just one cause for not making the playoffs, so there's no reason to try and pick just one. I agree that the players are the most responsible for us being down six games, but that doesn't mean we couldn't have a better record right now had Ozzie and KW done their jobs better. The fact is that Ozzie could have managed the lineup better and KW could have managed our roster (during the season) better Their poor decisions have cost us games in addition to certain players underperforming or having terrible stretches. Everyone, the players, the coaches, and the front office should be held accountable for the area they control. There is no reason to try and just pin it one one group.

[Buehrlesque]

If you finish a game or two out after you make a late run at it I think it would be easy to satrt cherry picking and second guessing everything trhat we didn't think was done right. We dug ahole early by going 11-22. That was it IMO

If the Sox have this epic "late run" that gets them back to 1 or 2 games out the day the season ends, it would also be easy to dismiss the run as coming in garbage time. Now that the pressure's off (their chances at the division are pretty remote), you have to take W-L performance with a grain of salt.

[Balta1701]

If the Sox have this epic "late run" that gets them back to 1 or 2 games out the day the season ends, it would also be easy to dismiss the run as coming in garbage time. Now that the pressure's off (their chances at the division are pretty remote), you have to take W-L performance with a grain of salt.

If they start making a run...and continue that run long enough to put pressure back onto the Tigers...then the pressure isn't "Off".

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Good article on the Dayan/Ozzie/Kenny situation with links in the story to more of the same. A must read. http://www.chicagonow.com/white-sox-observ...what-they-want/

Edited August 29, 2011 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[kitekrazy]

Good article on the Dayan/Ozzie/Kenny situation with links in the story to more of the same. A must read.

 

Are you referring to what Rodgers said? http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7643230.story

 

2. Did the White Sox wait too long to play the Dayan Viciedo card? Probably, but Viciedo may have benefitted from their reluctance to throw him into the fire in June or July.

 

His 2011 debut was impressive for more than just the single and long home run he hit in his first two at-bats. He walked in his third plate appearance -- matching the total of walks he had in his first 97 plate appearances last season. Viciedo has historically been one of those hitters scouts say will “swing at the rosin bag,’’ but appears to have greatly improved his patience at the plate after working with a combination of Greg Walker, Chris Chambliss, Jeff Manto and Tim Laker the last four years. He had only 13 walks to go with 103 strikeouts between Triple-A Charlotte and Chicago last season but in his second season at Charlotte offset 83 strikeouts with 45 walks, helping him improve his on-base percentage from .321 to .364.

 

[kitekrazy]

If the Sox have this epic "late run" that gets them back to 1 or 2 games out the day the season ends, it would also be easy to dismiss the run as coming in garbage time. Now that the pressure's off (their chances at the division are pretty remote), you have to take W-L performance with a grain of salt.

 

Probably not so since it is technically a 3 team race and Detroit, Chicago and Cleveland still have plenty of games to play against each other.

 

[StrangeSox]

You don't think it's also revisionist to assume that moving another player up in the order would have only had a positive effect?

 

Since Dunn is having a historically bad season, no, it's not revisionist. Plug in any other player in baseball* and the results are better.

 

*I'm not going to actually bother checking WAR or VORP, you get the point.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Are you referring to what Rodgers said? http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...0,7643230.story

 

2. Did the White Sox wait too long to play the Dayan Viciedo card? Probably, but Viciedo may have benefitted from their reluctance to throw him into the fire in June or July.

 

His 2011 debut was impressive for more than just the single and long home run he hit in his first two at-bats. He walked in his third plate appearance -- matching the total of walks he had in his first 97 plate appearances last season. Viciedo has historically been one of those hitters scouts say will “swing at the rosin bag,’’ but appears to have greatly improved his patience at the plate after working with a combination of Greg Walker, Chris Chambliss, Jeff Manto and Tim Laker the last four years. He had only 13 walks to go with 103 strikeouts between Triple-A Charlotte and Chicago last season but in his second season at Charlotte offset 83 strikeouts with 45 walks, helping him improve his on-base percentage from .321 to .364.

 

No forgot the link sorry http://www.chicagonow.com/white-sox-observ...what-they-want/

[DukeNukeEm]

So Dayan Viciedo spent almost a full year in the minors, learned how to take pitches and now (in the tiniest sample size ever used to anoint a professional athlete) is in the bigs a more well-rounded hitter.

 

Someone want to tell me exactly why we should've been so desperate to call him up when the minors were obviously good for his game?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

So Dayan Viciedo spent almost a full year in the minors, learned how to take pitches and now (in the tiniest sample size ever used to anoint a professional athlete) is in the bigs a more well-rounded hitter.

 

Someone want to tell me exactly why we should've been so desperate to call him up when the minors were obviously good for his game?

Isn't that obvious after how he hit last year , his hitting this year at Charlotte before the thumb injury and how bad Dunn and Rios have been ?

[BigSqwert]

Isn't that obvious after how he hit last year , his hitting this year at Charlotte before the thumb injury and how bad Dunn and Rios have been ?

 

It's obvious to 98% of the people that follow this team. No use arguing with the other 2%.

[DukeNukeEm]

Isn't that obvious after how he hit last year , his hitting this year at Charlotte before the thumb injury and how bad Dunn and Rios have been ?

Nah, its not really obvious considering prospects should be developed and not used as desperation pawns to bail out two awful contracts. In the long run the move to hold Viciedo down may actually pay off.

[DukeNukeEm]

It's obvious to 98% of the people that follow this team. No use arguing with the other 2%.

Majority isn't always right dude. If you think the 2% is difficult try the 98 sometime.

[chw42]

Nah, its not really obvious considering prospects should be developed and not used as desperation pawns to bail out two awful contracts. In the long run the move to hold Viciedo down may actually pay off.

 

Viciedo developed patience at the plate long before the calls for him started this year.

 

He was actually hitting .320 something in July, then he got hurt, and his AVG went down to about .295 and his OPS went down by 45 points. Keeping him down there for the extra month or two did nothing for his development.

[DukeNukeEm]

I always thought batting average didn't take into account walks, or is this some new overthought statistical crock of s*** that I've been lucky enough to ignore.

[chw42]

I always thought batting average didn't take into account walks, or is this some new overthought statistical crock of s*** that I've been lucky enough to ignore.

You're right, it doesn't, only somebody who doesn't think at all would even think of incorporating walks into BA. But I was more or less alluding to the fact that he was playing better when the majority of the fanbase wanted him up in the Majors and that the extra month he stayed down in the minors did nothing for him.

 

His OPS before the break was .909. His OPS after was .693.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2011 by chw42

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

You're right, it doesn't, only somebody who doesn't think at all would even think of incorporating walks into BA. But I was more or less alluding to the fact that he was playing better when the majority of the fanbase wanted him up in the Majors and that the extra month he stayed down in the minors did nothing for him.

 

His OPS before the break was .909. His OPS after was .693.

Plus he only started getting much more walks when his thumb was hurt and he didn't want to swing the bat which his why all his stats fell off a cliff except walks.