And that's a youth-led winner!

[BigSqwert]

You know as soon as Viciedo hit that dinger his brain was working in defense mode for questions that were gonna fly at him. Those weren't random remarks...he had a while to stew on 'em. You know the first word to pop into Ozzie's brain on the 3-run dinger was...."f***"!

 

He'll probably bench Dayan for 10 games for showing up the manager.

[SoxAce]

Did not see the game, but look at the highlights.. nice. Looked like Viciedo broke his bat on that home run too..

 

Great to see the youth do well.

[DukeNukeEm]

You know as soon as Viciedo hit that dinger his brain was working in defense mode for questions that were gonna fly at him. Those weren't random remarks...he had a while to stew on 'em. You know the first word to pop into Ozzie's brain on the 3-run dinger was...."f***"!

GAHH MY BASEBALL TEAM IS GOING TO WIN

 

Ozzie Guillen is to Sox fans as Barack Obama is to right-wing talk shows. If there isn't a narrative to support the venom people will just make one up.

[southsider2k5]

GAHH MY BASEBALL TEAM IS GOING TO WIN

 

Ozzie Guillen is to Sox fans as Barack Obama is to right-wing talk shows. If there isn't a narrative to support the venom people will just make one up.

 

Great post.

[SoIL]

GAHH MY BASEBALL TEAM IS GOING TO WIN

 

Ozzie Guillen is to Sox fans as Barack Obama is to right-wing talk shows. If there isn't a narrative to support the venom people will just make one up.

 

Like this post too.

[RockRaines]

Political arguments are gay and have nothing to do with baseball.

 

 

With that said, I think its pretty obvious that Dayan needed to be up months ago and its a reflection on the org on how terrible they are.

[WilliamTell]

There's only one Terry "F***ING" Bevington.

 

Thinking the same thing!

[Wanne]

GAHH MY BASEBALL TEAM IS GOING TO WIN

 

Ozzie Guillen is to Sox fans as Barack Obama is to right-wing talk shows. If there isn't a narrative to support the venom people will just make one up.

 

"I don't give a (bleep) what people say," manager Ozzie Guillen said. "I only give a (bleep) what (Chairman) Jerry Reinsdorf and (general manager) Kenny Williams say. And people can have their own opinion. That's their job — talk."

 

"I hope (critics) blame me like 'wow, we lose this season because Viciedo wasn't with the White Sox,'" Guillen said. "I'll take that. But as long as I can sleep well and know I did the right thing, that's all that counts for me. They got their own opinion. They don't pay my salary."

 

He knew he was gonna face the questions as soon as he hit it...those are defensive statements. Nobody making anything up. His comments pretty much prove it. BTW...right-wing?!? BO's losing ground all on his own...and within his own party as well. You really wanna go there?

[DukeNukeEm]

The politics comparison was just to illustrate a point. Ozzie doesn't even have to do anything wrong anymore, whatever action he takes will be automatically regarded as the wrong move. If what he does works it's credited to luck, if it doesn't its his fault and he's left soley to blame. You cant really believe the refusal to call up Dayan Viciedo sabotaged our season, especially when our major offseason acquisition and high-potential 2B both wound up being busts.

[Wanne]

The politics comparison was just to illustrate a point. Ozzie doesn't even have to do anything wrong anymore, whatever action he takes will be automatically regarded as the wrong move. If what he does works it's credited to luck, if it doesn't its his fault and he's left soley to blame. You cant really believe the refusal to call up Dayan Viciedo sabotaged our season, especially when our major offseason acquisition and high-potential 2B both wound up being busts.

 

Nah...I gotcha. Agree to a point...but Ozzie doesn't help his own cause with his stubborness sometimes. I don't blame Ozzie for this season at all...but he has had some questionable decisions (mostly game time/lineup). But not one manager/GM could have overcome the complete crap season Dunn has endured.

 

And btw...for as big of a negative person as I've been towards Beckham...DAMN...if this kid could just hit a consistant .275 or so...he'd be a consistant Gold Glove candidate with his D.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Wanne

[chisoxfan09]

They still have the option to tell Dunn/his agent to retire. Couldn´t hurt.

[hogan873]

Great game. Flowers is impressive so far. I certainly hope he continues to play like he has. After next season, he will most likely be the starting catcher for the Sox. As soon as I saw Viciedo hit that HR I started laughing. His game today made the organization look foolish. In my mind there is no excuse for not bringing him up earlier. If he's not starting today, any respect I had for Ozzie will be gone.

[Rowand44]

The politics comparison was just to illustrate a point. Ozzie doesn't even have to do anything wrong anymore, whatever action he takes will be automatically regarded as the wrong move. If what he does works it's credited to luck, if it doesn't its his fault and he's left soley to blame. You cant really believe the refusal to call up Dayan Viciedo sabotaged our season, especially when our major offseason acquisition and high-potential 2B both wound up being busts.

Please.

[BigSqwert]

The politics comparison was just to illustrate a point. Ozzie doesn't even have to do anything wrong anymore, whatever action he takes will be automatically regarded as the wrong move. If what he does works it's credited to luck, if it doesn't its his fault and he's left soley to blame. You cant really believe the refusal to call up Dayan Viciedo sabotaged our season, especially when our major offseason acquisition and high-potential 2B both wound up being busts.

So I take it you believe Ozzie was an excellent manager this season. He was a great motivator, put together optimal lineups, was a superior bullpen manager, and got the most out of his talent. Everyone else is just delusional.

[Balta1701]

The politics comparison was just to illustrate a point. Ozzie doesn't even have to do anything wrong anymore, whatever action he takes will be automatically regarded as the wrong move. If what he does works it's credited to luck, if it doesn't its his fault and he's left soley to blame. You cant really believe the refusal to call up Dayan Viciedo sabotaged our season, especially when our major offseason acquisition and high-potential 2B both wound up being busts.

This is why a lot of us said that Ozzie's performance should be judged entirely based on how this season goes.

 

It's the only fair way to evaluate all those decisions in aggregate. If Ozzie wins the Central this year, he's won the Central 2 of the last 4 years and 3 of the last 7. That's a decent record.

 

If Ozzie does not win the central this year, then he's had the most talented and most expensive (or 2nd most expensive at most) team on paper 3 of those 4 years and won it once. That's a dismal record.

 

Wins and Losses are the one thing you can hang your hat on for managerial decision in aggregate. If people are just crediting success to luck, then he can still point at his winning the Central at the end of the year, and I will agree with that.

[LittleHurt05]

The Kids Can Play

[elrockinMT]

I don't think he'll get enough at bats to do that. We still have Oz being stubborn in his final 4 weeks as mayor of the South Side. Oz isn't going to play him regularly IMO. Dunn n Rios baby. He wants to prove a point that no manager could win with those 2 albatrosses.

 

 

Greg I can't agree with your posts on this. I think Ozzie and KW were right as hard as the decision was and all the griping we all did. The kid needed to learn how to hit major league pitching. Before he hacked at everything. I think the most important and encouraging thing we saw ysterday was him taking pitches and getting a walk. The homer was fantastic of course, but his patience at the plate is what impressed me the most. Phil Rogers article today in the Tribine summed it up really well.

 

We are still in this thing until we aren't. It should be fun seeing Viciedo the rest of the way and next year will be better. I think Adam Dunn will be sitting quite a bit and he understands that

Edited August 29, 2011 by elrockinMT

[BigSqwert]

Greg I can't agree with your posts on this. I think Ozzie adn KW were right as hard as the decsion was and all the griping we call did. The kid needed to learn how to hit major league pitching. Before he hacked at everything. I think the most importnt and encougaing thing we saw ysterday was him taking pitches and getting a walk. The homer was fantastic of course, but his patience at the plate is what impressed me the most.

 

He has had that plate discipline all year long in Charlotte where he was putting up ridiculous numbers. We could have used his bat and patience at the plate at any point time during our 5 month stretch of terrible offense.

[elrockinMT]

Great game. Flowers is impressive so far. I certainly hope he continues to play like he has. After next season, he will most likely be the starting catcher for the Sox. As soon as I saw Viciedo hit that HR I started laughing. His game today made the organization look foolish. In my mind there is no excuse for not bringing him up earlier. If he's not starting today, any respect I had for Ozzie will be gone.

 

 

I like Flowers with the bat. He is better than we have seen in the past, but he needs work on blocking balls in the dirt. My guess is he and AJ are the catching duo next year and AJ seems to have taken Tyler under his wing

[elrockinMT]

He has had that plate discipline all year long in Charlotte where he was putting up ridiculous numbers. We could have used his bat and patience at the plate at any point time during our 5 month stretch of terrible offense.

 

 

And where would he have played? I for one am glad Ozzie stuck with Pierre in LF. Now maybe in hindsight, which is always perfect, we should have passed on Adam Dunn and went with DV in the role of DH anmd part time RF-LF-3B and 1B?

[Balta1701]

He has had that plate discipline all year long in Charlotte where he was putting up ridiculous numbers. We could have used his bat and patience at the plate at any point time during our 5 month stretch of terrible offense.

Gotta disagree here a bit BS...His plate discipline has clearly been improving as the year went on. BB by month

 

4

9

5

13

14

 

It was May when he really started raking and taking some walks, and when he went into his July/August injury slump that was when he started taking more walks than ever before.

[DukeNukeEm]

This is why a lot of us said that Ozzie's performance should be judged entirely based on how this season goes.

 

It's the only fair way to evaluate all those decisions in aggregate. If Ozzie wins the Central this year, he's won the Central 2 of the last 4 years and 3 of the last 7. That's a decent record.

 

If Ozzie does not win the central this year, then he's had the most talented and most expensive (or 2nd most expensive at most) team on paper 3 of those 4 years and won it once. That's a dismal record.

 

Wins and Losses are the one thing you can hang your hat on for managerial decision in aggregate. If people are just crediting success to luck, then he can still point at his winning the Central at the end of the year, and I will agree with that.

The team has spent an obscene amount of money on guys who aren't talented (at least not this year). Ozzie Guillen is not responsible for Adam Dunn or Alexis Rios being awful, but he is responsible for giving those investments as much of a chance to succeed as he can. As good as De Aza has been, its not like he was waiting in the wings like a Jason Heyward.

[Balta1701]

The team has spent an obscene amount of money on guys who aren't talented (at least not this year). Ozzie Guillen is not responsible for Adam Dunn or Alexis Rios being awful, but he is responsible for giving those investments as much of a chance to succeed as he can. As good as De Aza has been, its not like he was waiting in the wings like a Jason Heyward.

No one here has, as far as I know, ever defended ozzie as a great on the field tactical manager. Not even Greg. The defending point for Ozzie was always supposed to be that he'd get the most out of his players. You could look at the projections coming into the season and the team would outperform them, at least by a little.

 

Adam Dunn, Alex Rios, Gordon Beckham, and a host of others simply should not be as bad as they are this season. If Ozzie Guillen's job is to get the most out of his players, he is utterly failing to do so, for whatever reason. So no, it may not be his fault that Dunn and Rios have imploded...but similarly, that cannot be used to defend him, because otherwise, there's no reason to keep him.

[DukeNukeEm]

Balta, unless you want to give credit to Ozzie for something like Paul Konerko losing his old ST nickname (Palsy) then your argument is basically boiling down to MLB managers not really mattering at all.

[Balta1701]

Balta, unless you want to give credit to Ozzie for something like Paul Konerko losing his old ST nickname (Palsy) then your argument is basically boiling down to MLB managers not really mattering at all.

No, acutally that's what you're trying to defend him with...when you say that it's not his fault when guys on his team bust apart and underperform. My argument is that managers can certainly matter...and based on this year's performance, Ozzie Guillen receives a mark that is well below average, nearly failing.

 

Furthermore, when you couple that failing grade to 2 below average performances in the last 2 years and 4 in the last 5, that record of futility is the single best reason to replace him.

 

That's the only fair way to evaluate Ozzie GUillen's performance on the whole. Wins and losses. And by that metric, Ozzie Guillen is failing to do the job he is paid to do.