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QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 10:55 AM)
Sorry, but if Dunn didn't crap his pants and Peavy and Rios where at least decent, no one would be talking about any of this..

 

This board is sending me into convulsions. We've got DA who says Greg Walker is by no means responsible for anything that's gone wrong with the White Sox offense. Tex is saying as long as KW provides us with a paper champion in March that his job is completed and anything that happens after that is none of his concern. And now TRU is saying that because Ozzie has had bad players this year (I guess Ozzie is the only manager in the history of baseball that's ever had players underperform?) that he is absolved of all blame for this disaster of a season. Well there you have it. White Sox baseball: where infinity-like job security happens!

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QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 11:09 AM)
This board is sending me into convulsions. We've got DA who says Greg Walker is by no means responsible for anything that's gone wrong with the White Sox offense. Tex is saying as long as KW provides us with a paper champion in March that his job is completed and anything that happens after that is none of his concern. And now TRU is saying that because Ozzie has had bad players this year (I guess Ozzie is the only manager in the history of baseball that's ever had players underperform?) that he is absolved of all blame for this disaster of a season. Well there you have it. White Sox baseball: where infinity-like job security happens!

 

Chicago White Sox baseball - No accountability.

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QUOTE (Papa Tru @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 01:54 AM)
I cant imagine how anyone could possibly think that a different manager would have changed anything about this season.. Like I said, they are just tired of his act

 

Yep, the idea the Guillen has held this team back from a division championship is crazy. He should be fired because three consecutive years without a playoff appearance in a major market dictates that.

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QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 11:09 AM)
This board is sending me into convulsions. We've got DA who says Greg Walker is by no means responsible for anything that's gone wrong with the White Sox offense. Tex is saying as long as KW provides us with a paper champion in March that his job is completed and anything that happens after that is none of his concern. And now TRU is saying that because Ozzie has had bad players this year (I guess Ozzie is the only manager in the history of baseball that's ever had players underperform?) that he is absolved of all blame for this disaster of a season. Well there you have it. White Sox baseball: where infinity-like job security happens!

 

No, that isn't what I am saying. Of course it is his concern. The GM puts together players but they have to play and the manager has to manage. If you leave spring training with a team that has an excellent chance to win the division, he has done a good job. No one expected Dunn to play this bad, it is unfair to blame the GM for that. Same with some of the others. Blame the GM for the GM job, don't blame him for the players or managers. Same as blaming Konerko for not going out and getting a better DH or Oz for not executing a double play. The GM can only play the game on paper.

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QUOTE (BigSqwert @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 08:10 AM)
That's the one thing you will never understand and you've proven it time and time again.

 

If Ozzie were to bring in Frasor in the 9th instead of Santos in a 1 run game to pitch to Migueal Cabrera and 1st base was open (man on 3rd) you would somehow think it was a good idea if they actually pitched to Cabrera and miraculously got an out. That would be considered a boneheaded managerial decision by anyone with half a brain but you would praise Ozzie if this one time it worked against the odds. More often than not, bringing in a terrible pitcher when you have better options and then to pitch to the opponent's deadliest hitter will likely result in the opponent getting a key hit and beating you. I don't understand why you never seem to get this. To you, correlation equals causation. Frasor got the out so that means Ozzie made a great move. Not even Hawk, Stoney or any other analyst/expert would agree with you.

 

Just reading people's responses to greg makes me angry. I honestly don't understand why you people even bother attempting to engage him in a logical discussion.

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There are two kinds of accountability, within the organization which we cannot see, and accountability we can see (firing people). What most people seem to mean when they hear accountability is fire everyone after a losing season. The Al Davis revolving door of people doesn't seem to work, but either does riding a dead horse.

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QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 11:56 AM)
Yep, the idea the Guillen has held this team back from a division championship is crazy. He should be fired because three consecutive years (with talent to win) without a playoff appearance in a major market dictates that.

 

Fixed and I agree.

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QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:42 PM)
There are two kinds of accountability, within the organization which we cannot see, and accountability we can see (firing people). What most people seem to mean when they hear accountability is fire everyone after a losing season. The Al Davis revolving door of people doesn't seem to work, but either does riding a dead horse.

How many coaches would Al Davis fire if he had 1 playoff appearance in 6 years?

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QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 03:56 PM)
Tex, what accountability within the org do you think is happening

 

We have no way of knowing. For all I know JR demanded certain line ups (although I really doubt it). My point is the only accountability we can see is usually someone being fired. For all we know KW has been removed from player evaluations, Oz has been removed from decisions regarding minor league call ups. Who knows?

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 03:51 PM)
How many coaches would Al Davis fire if he had 1 playoff appearance in 6 years?

 

We would have had seven managers between 2000 and 2010. Three or four GMs, a complete change over in scouting.

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QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 05:12 PM)
We have no way of knowing. For all I know JR demanded certain line ups (although I really doubt it). My point is the only accountability we can see is usually someone being fired. For all we know KW has been removed from player evaluations, Oz has been removed from decisions regarding minor league call ups. Who knows?

Then it's absolutely ridiculous that either of them are still employed.

 

Example; If Ozzie has no say over minor league callups, then the fact that it took this long to call up help is on KW, and clearly that was an awful set of mistakes. And if the manager can't be trusted dealing with minor league callups, then that manager doesn't belong anywhere near employment.

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QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 03:56 PM)
Tex, what accountability within the org do you think is happening

 

The lack of accountability is rampant, not just in the sense that Tex is trying to talk down as wanting everyone fired. Players showing no effort regularly getting starts while other guys bust their asses and get benched anyway is the first GLARING example of it.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:15 PM)
So, would you say that any extreme is bad? Such as, extreme loyalty and subservience to a manager with no good reason?

 

:lolhitting Any extreme is bad. And how nice you loaded you post with a heavily editorialized opinion. What you really are doing is setting up something everyone will agree with and adding the opinion you are trying to argue in the second part. This way it looks like someone is agreeing with your opinion regarding subservience with no good reason when in truth they are agreeing that extremes are bad.

 

 

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QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:21 PM)
The lack of accountability is rampant, not just in the sense that Tex is trying to talk down as wanting everyone fired. Players showing no effort regularly getting starts while other guys bust their asses and get benched anyway is the first GLARING example of it.

 

Great point. I wasn't understanding you were meaning organization wide.

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QUOTE (Tex @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 05:26 PM)
:lolhitting Any extreme is bad. And how nice you loaded you post with a heavily editorialized opinion. What you really are doing is setting up something everyone will agree with and adding the opinion you are trying to argue in the second part. This way it looks like someone is agreeing with your opinion regarding subservience with no good reason when in truth they are agreeing that extremes are bad.

And comparing people who are tired of Ozzie's act and years of failure to Al Davis firing a couple coaches every year isn't a loaded, heavily editorialized opinion?

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Cop-outs galore from the usual suspects around here.

 

Fine, guys. The players are all to blame; Ozzie is NEVER to blame for ANYTHING. If he makes an idiotic managerial decision, he is not responsible for it... ever.

 

 

This is what you guys are alluding to. Ozzie has a lack of talent? Sure, but that amall amount of talent sitting on the bench while Dunn bats 4th or 5th is unforgivable. And this is just one example out of ENDLESS examples I could use. A "lack of talent" doesn't mean there's nothing the manager could screw up; clearly some of you have not been paying attention to a large amount of posts in the topic and are just too stubborn to bother because you love and defend Ozzie to a tee for some bizarre reason. There's really nothing to even like about the guy at this point.

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QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 05:07 PM)
Cop-outs galore from the usual suspects around here.

 

Fine, guys. The players are all to blame; Ozzie is NEVER to blame for ANYTHING. If he makes an idiotic managerial decision, he is not responsible for it... ever.

 

 

This is what you guys are alluding to. Ozzie has a lack of talent? Sure, but that amall amount of talent sitting on the bench while Dunn bats 4th or 5th is unforgivable. And this is just one example out of ENDLESS examples I could use. A "lack of talent" doesn't mean there's nothing the manager could screw up; clearly some of you have not been paying attention to a large amount of posts in the topic and are just too stubborn to bother because you love and defend Ozzie to a tee for some bizarre reason. There's really nothing to even like about the guy at this point.

 

1) Ozzie tells it like it is.

2) He will go to Florida and win multiple titles while we have some boring manager.

3) My god

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:45 PM)
And comparing people who are tired of Ozzie's act and years of failure to Al Davis firing a couple coaches every year isn't a loaded, heavily editorialized opinion?

 

Won't you agree that extremes are bad? Like not holding players responsible for their poor performance while blaming the clubhouse attendant, travelling secretary, and Ozzie?

 

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QUOTE (TheBigHurt @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 05:07 PM)
Cop-outs galore from the usual suspects around here.

 

Fine, guys. The players are all to blame; Ozzie is NEVER to blame for ANYTHING. If he makes an idiotic managerial decision, he is not responsible for it... ever.

 

 

This is what you guys are alluding to. Ozzie has a lack of talent? Sure, but that amall amount of talent sitting on the bench while Dunn bats 4th or 5th is unforgivable. And this is just one example out of ENDLESS examples I could use. A "lack of talent" doesn't mean there's nothing the manager could screw up; clearly some of you have not been paying attention to a large amount of posts in the topic and are just too stubborn to bother because you love and defend Ozzie to a tee for some bizarre reason. There's really nothing to even like about the guy at this point.

 

Let's face it. If not for 2005, there wouldn't be a single Sox fan on earth clamoring for Ozzie to return or playing the "it's not his fault" card. That's all it comes down to. When a Ozzie backer is looking through their DVD collection and they happen to come across the '05 World Series DVD, they're instantly paralyzed with overwhelming nostalgia.

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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 5, 2011 -> 04:45 PM)
And comparing people who are tired of Ozzie's act and years of failure to Al Davis firing a couple coaches every year isn't a loaded, heavily editorialized opinion?

 

And that is out of context. I said that accountability often means firing someone and a revolving door, aka Al Davis, has not proven to be very successful. But keep creating paper tigers.

 

Oz deserves some of the responsibility for the failures this season. However, the players are the ones that should carry the majority of the responsibility. I do not believe that a different manager would have this team in the playoffs. I believe it is time to break up the KW / Oz team so the organization can be more unified going forward.

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